The Religion Report: 23 June 2004 - Tony Campolo

[This is the print version of story http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s1137513.htm]

Stephen Crittenden: This week the US Southern Baptists split with the Baptist World Alliance that they helped found way back in 1905.

The largest Protestant denomination in the United States, the powerful Southern Baptist Convention, has announced that it is splitting from the Baptist World Alliance that it helped to found a century ago.

Leading Southern Baptist, Page Patterson, says that the Baptist World Alliance has been moving relentlessly to the left, and that it now includes member churches whose views are unacceptable to Southern Baptists.

Well, as it happens, there's a very prominent American Baptist in town at the moment, the Reverend Tony Campolo, who was spiritual adviser to former President Bill Clinton. Tony Campolo spoke to John Cleary, and in the week when Bill Clinton's memoirs were published, they began by talking about the Clinton legacy.

Tony Campolo: The legacy of Clinton is that he cared about poor people, that he cared about the little guy. And when all the dust clears, and all the scandals are forgotten, there will be millions and millions of poor people around the world who will have been helped. He was a peacemaker, whereas our present administration has really allowed the Middle East to get out of hand. Bill Clinton was able to bring them together to the table, Palestinian and Jew, and talk about reconciliation. In Northern Ireland he did the same thing. His great legacy will be that he was a peacemaker and he cared about the poor.

John Cleary: Has your association with him cost you something of your career?

Tony Campolo: Very much so. But I'm an old guy now. I mean I've reached that age where my idea of a Happy Hour is a nap. I mean I'm old. And I don't really care any more. But when this all blew up, I began to get cancellations from speaking engagements, Evangelicals said, If you're going to be friends with that man, you're not going to be in our church. Which amazes me because they claim to preach about a Jesus who is the friend of sinners. Yet the minute you associate with a sinner, they get very, very careful about whether or not you can come to their church.

John Cleary: You mention the policies of the present administration in the Middle East. In the last couple of days we've had a group of American retired military commanders and diplomats say that this administration in its policy direction, has moved the USA into a way that's long-term, fundamentally damaging to the notion of the US' engagement with the world.

Tony Campolo: After 9/11, the days that immediately followed 9/11, everybody in the world was crying for America. America experienced an outpouring of empathy and sympathy and care, from nations around the world. We had the emotions of the world on our side. In the last three years, this country of mine, that I love so desperately, has basically alienated all of those people that once looked at us as friends. It's about time that the Administration in Washington learns that our security depends more on the friends that we make than on the armies that we deploy, and the last three years we thought that our armies would make us a secure nation.

John Cleary: Yet much of your support is coming from the Christian right.

Tony Campolo: Yes, and it's about time that the Christian right recognises something: that it's more important to be faithful to Jesus Christ than to be faithful to the Republican party.

John Cleary: Tony Campolo, let's talk for a moment about internal goings-on in the church in the United States. The Southern Baptist Convention has recently had something of a contretemps over its sense of direction, and may in fact split.

Tony Campolo: Well the split has been going on for quite a period of time. What happened in the last week which has made the news, is that the Southern Baptist Convention, which was part of a huge worldwide group called the Baptist World Alliance, said "We're not going to be part of this group any more because there are certain theologians in Europe who are liberals, and we don't want to be associated with anybody that's liberal". I've got to tell you, the Southern Baptist Convention drives me up the wall, because basically they are on a power trip. They act as though if we can't control an organisation, we don't want to be part of it, and they haven't been able to control the Baptist World Alliance, and that's a problem.

John Cleary: What are the touchstone issues for them?

Tony Campolo: The touchstone issues are these: first of all, the inerrancy of Scripture. I think that becomes the big one for them. They would in fact believe that anybody that doesn't agree that the Bible is factually true on every detail, is not a Christian. They are very, very upset with the fact that some of us who evangelicals, I am one, would say You know, I've got Catholic friends that are Christians, because I think Jesus transcends denominational affiliation. So they've become hot issues. And I think the abortion issue's become a big issue with them.

John Cleary: Gays and women also seem to feature.

Tony Campolo: Oh yes. Well you know, the gay issue I think most Baptist groups would probably agree, they tend to be fairly conservative on the gay issues, Baptists all around the world tend to be fairly conservative on that issue. On the issue of women preachers, now that's another story. I spoke to the split-off group of the Southern Baptist Convention called the Co-operative Baptist Fellowship, which is a pretty large group, it's about a million members now, it's a split-off of the Southern Baptist Convention, which still has about 17-million members in the United States. And I got hot on this issue. And I began saying things like Anybody that denies women the right to exercise their spiritual gifts, are doing evil, they're doing evil. Boy, did I get a reaction to that. But I have to point out that the Bible says, (here I am with the Bible says) the Bible says that in the last days your young men and your young women shall prophecy. I will point out that in Romans 8:16, that Junia, a woman, is listed as one of the apostles in the leadership of the church, that four of Phillip's daughters become prophets, i.e. preachers. I can show you all through the New Testament - Eodius and Syntyche - women - play key roles of leadership in the early church.

John Cleary: It also strikes at the heart of their own evangelical origins, doesn't it? Because the early evangelicals were very much in favour of women, particularly in the United States. Phoebe Palmer, one of the great women preachers.

Tony Campolo: Yes. But what's even more funny is this: that the Southern Baptist Convention for years had women preachers, and all of a sudden when the fundamentalists took over, they dis-ordained hundreds of women, missionaries around the world we told, You can no longer call yourself ordained. Personally I think that the whole idea of ordination is crazy, because I don't know where this idea of ordination came from. You know, shall we ordain ? My Bible says that every Christian is ordained, every Christian is ordained and filled with the spirit of God to be at work in the world, preaching, teaching, healing, working.

John Cleary: You mentioned the size of the Southern Baptist Convention, this is a staggering figure to Australians, but I have heard it said somewhat facetiously, that when they're counting, occasionally there are more Baptists than people.

Tony Campolo: Well you know, they'll joke about that, but the truth is, I think those 17-million is probably a realistic figure. The truth is that you can go into places like Georgia and Florida and everybody you met - I was going through Texas one time, stopped at a gasoline station, I said, I'm going to Waco, how will I know when I get to Waco? They said, "There's this big building, you know, a lot of Baptists round a (indecipherable) I said, Are you Baptist? He said, Man, in Texas if you ain't Baptist, you ain't nothing. And that's pretty much the truth.

John Cleary: So is the split an indication of a resurgent fundamentalism or of its continuing marginalisation from the broad stream of American evangelicals.

Tony Campolo: Well the great scholar of fundamentalism at the University of Chicago -

John Cleary: Martin Mahoney.

Tony Campolo: Yes, Martin Mahoney, who studied this in depth, contends that fundamentalism is experiencing a rebirth in all movements, in Islam, in Judaism, in Christianity, in Buddhism, in Hinduism, fundamentalism is on the rise in all religions. And it basically rises because people in an era of uncertainty, of instability, of social chaos, want absolutes, and the one thing that fundamentalism does provide is absolutes. There is no room for questions. All the answers are given, it's all neatly wrapped up on a package, there's nothing to think about, just accept. I don't go that simply.

John Cleary: Final question. To what extent will that fundamentalist push both within Catholicism and in Protestantism be an influence in the coming American Presidential elections?

Tony Campolo: It'll be a great influence in the coming election. The fundamentalist community in the United States has made it quite clear, that if you don't vote for George Bush, you're not a Christian. They've made it that clear. I mean I was just on Fox news in a debate the other day. Fox news had me on debating Lou Sheldon , out of California, mainly on that issue, because he was saying that if you don't vote Republican you're out of the will of God. Wow. That kind of mentality scares the daylights out of me, but it does represent a mentality that is pervasive in the evangelical community today. And it scares the daylights out of me. Some of us, guys like Jim Wallace, myself, there are a few others who have joined up with us, we're saying, We want to call ourselves progressive evangelicals rather than evangelicals any more, because we just don't buy into that narrow-mindedness. We contend that the Republican party may be right on the abortion issue, but the Republican party has instituted a tax reform Bill that's made rich people richer and poor people poorer. It's supported capital punishment, which we think is contrary to everything that the Scriptures teach, it's been anti-environmentalist, and we think that the Bible is very pro-environmentalist, so we're progressive evangelicals. We believe the Bible, we believe the Apostles' Creed, we believe in a personal relationship with Jesus, but we don't see how you can read that Bible and come out with that right-wing mediology.

Stephen Crittenden: Tony Campolo, speaking to John Cleary.

Guests on this program: Baptist Minister

Further information: Tony Campolo homepage http://www.tonycampolo.org/