I'm pressed for time (as they say of Egyptian mummies :-), but briefly:

First,

(My responses preceded by *)

Rowland, My questions were an attempt to clarify what your position is regarding the link, if any, between Baptism and Membership.

* Theoretically/theologically there's a very close link, IMO.

As you know there is a broad spectrum of views on this. I have heard that some require people to have been baptised not only in their way but in their church.

* Broadly six views (http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/9660.htm )

Others call for baptism by immersion as a believer.

* Some *immerse* babies!

Others are happy with baptism as a believer with the mode being secondary.

* What age is a 'believer' (Baptists generally suggest a different chronology to Reformed Anglicans/Presbyterians)?

Others are content with any form of baptism provided it is Christian baptism.

* IOW the amount of H2O is secondary eh?

(I've not heard of any church settling for say a Mormon baptism, but there may be some that do.)

* Or any other sect: SDA baptism used to be problematical for Baptists, probably not - generally - any more.

Then there are some churches who are happy to receive into Membership people who have not been baptised in any form.

* Count me among these, with some serious caveats (see below)

I just wondered what your position is and what that means for your understanding of Baptism. Incidentally, you mentioned Eva Burrows. I remember speaking with a Salvation Army officer friend about Baptism and him telling me that putting on the uniform was his baptism. That's a bit too dry for me!!

* And me :-)

Regards, David

~~~

Next, from

I accept the need to reject a grace-plus theology, but the essence of the Christian gospel is not that God accepts us unconditionally. The essence of the Christian gospel is that God accepts us in Jesus Christ unconditionally. By all means, and in every way, let grace win!

* Hey, yhou're not far from the kingdom :-)!

But cheap grace, as Bonhoeffer said, remains the great enemy of the church today. I often get worried when I hear the word 'grace' being used because what usually follows it is a call to cheap, rather than costly, grace. So that's what my little alarm bell was going off for. Back to the topic of baptism though, my question related to how what you were saying about baptism relates to grace.

* See my article ( http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/9660.htm ): I'd be interested for others to argue with it.

* A couple of other points:

1. I'm in favour of a more rigorous catechumenate (say 40 weeks with baptisms at Easter). So candidates for baptism/church membership will have studied the issue - from a broadly Baptist perspective - very thoroughly. After all that, the Baptist principle of 'individual liberty' (remember that one?) kicks in.

2. I've personally only ever baptized people (maybe a four-figure number) by immersion, all aged about 16-17-plus, all in water. Oh wait, there were a couple who had a serious physical problem with water, and I used oil/sprinkling. And several of course who were hydrophobic, and I didn't put their head under...

3. Re grace. Let's use this stark argument to point up what I consider a major anomaly in all this:

The fact is that the vast majority of Baptist Churches with single adult baptized members, have (let's be straight here) fornicators in their membership. A survey of many Baptist pastors' groups a few years ago and my contacts personally with Baptist pastors who know their people lead me to put the figure at 70-100%. So they're members 'cos they've been baptized by immersion (in most cases) aged teenage-plus. But a godly Salvation Army leader or Anglican Bishop who has not been baptized with water, or with a minimal amount respectively, couldn't be full members of most of our churches in the past (but fortunately that's changing). Get my point? Any theology/practice which produces an anomaly like this has got to be wrong/pharisaical.

This is still *the* major topic creating the most animated conversation in Baptist pastors' conferences I've spoken at (in all Australian States, and NZ and elsewhere). Discussions on the theological and practical variants sometimes last all night. But in clergy conferences of other denominations, you scratch a different 'hot spot'. Interesting...

Shalom! Rowland Croucher