Transcript from ABC 774 John Faine 'Conversation Hour' Friday 7.3.03

John Faine and Terry Lane (co-host) had this 15 minute conversation with Keith Ward on general questions about 'God'. Both John and Terry are 'sceptics' but Keith was both relaxed and forthright in the way he responded to their questions and challenges. This is a reasonably full transcript of their conversation - with a few omitted sections shown by ' . . . ').

Keith Ward

a.. *Minister of (I think) the Methodist Church in England. b.. *Regius professor of Divinity at Oxford University. c.. *His most recent book is titled "God: A Guide for the Perplexed" (Published by Book Wise International.)

d.. *Currently visiting Australia and in Melbourne for a number of public events: *Friday 3rd March at Trinity College (Uni of Melb) "The Cosmic Christ and the Scientific World View"

*Tuesday 18th March at St Peter's Eastern Hill "God: A Guide for the Perplexed" (his recent book title)

*Friday 21st March at Trinity College (Uni of Melb) "Christianity and Islam: and Inevitable Conflict?'

(See notices on board for details regarding these events)

Keith (1)

"It (religion) is not about how to get out of being perplexed but how to live with it.

Thinking about God is much more subtle and complicated and finessed than a lot of people think. Some people think they know all about God and (that) they've got it all sorted out. I go along with M. - he , like the other great thinkers in other traditions, say, 'God is not what you think - God is very different from that.'

John We need to define what we mean. Did you limit what you mean by God?

Keith (2)

I limited it to the way people use the word - like Jews and Muslims and Christians use the word - and so do most Hindus. Buddhists are (of) one of the few major religions who don't use the word.

God (then) is the 'supreme spiritual reality' with whom we can communicate.

I try to look at the different traditions and see how different people have thought about it - what the best minds in history, who have thought about God, think about God.

I've looked at the difference - and also at what they have in common- which is an enormous amount - which is a surprise. Even I was surprised to find how similar the things are that they are saying.

Terry But why did you use as your starting point, Greek polytheism, because if you are writing a book about God, and you start with the absurdities of Greek mythology, you are almost inviting people to discredit the argument before you start?

Keith (3)

Well, I don't think Greek mythology is absurd - in fact it's very like modern day Hinduism. It's easy to stand outside that tradition and say, 'O here is a lot of polytheistic nonsense . . They give a very irreligious impression - it's just a lot of stories about funny Gods doing funny things. ' (But) there's a lot of depth to it.

The reason I begin with the Greeks is that Greek philosophy is central to Islam, Judaism and Christianity in its development - they used Greek philosophy and thought. So I've looked at the religious of the Greeks , not as a set of funny stories but (for) the spiritual implications of these stories. That's what I've tried to bring out. They're very poetic - very symbolic and metaphysical. Deep spiritual truth is in that.

Terry What did the famous philosophers think of religion? Plato, Aristotle . . ?

Keith . . . They practiced religion . .

Terry Socrates was famous for being forced to commit suicide because of his atheism wasn't he?

Keith (4)

Because, well, this is what religious people do to each other unfortunately (laughter / sniggering?) - he didn't have the right religion. He didn't like all the popular religious practices - like getting your fortune told.

But he did have a very religious view. Plato's whole works are religious, in a sense. He believed in one supreme, objective 'goodness', - THE Good - that really existed - the ideal of life. The aim of human life is to know 'the good' - a way of knowledge - to seek 'the good'. This is a very sophisticated form of religion. It was too sophisticated for a lot of the ancient Greek politicians.

Terry In this day and age (of scientific explanation) . . the 'God hypothesis ' appears to be unnecessary. We don't need God to explain anything anymore. So why do you persist?

Keith (5)

You don't need God to explain anything! The book tries to make this case - that it (religion) has never explained anything. It was never meant to explain anything. Science is what explains things. Aristotle and Plato had science - but religion is something different. Religion is not about explaining things. Religion is about coming to terms with human existence - facing suffering and death, purpose and values. These are the things religions are concerned with and you don't get 'explanations'.

It's a bit like saying, if you fall in love with someone (and marry them) . . and you say, 'what does she explain?' The answer probably is - she doesn't explain anything! But she's transformed my life and the whole thing seems different because of this relationship.

Terry . . . (on Galileo and the Church's defence of the old cosmology, and later resistance to , Darwin . . )

Keith . . . It was a scientific dispute. (not religious)

Terry . . . (on the Church's 'defence' of the view that the earth and human life were at the centre of God's creation.)

Keith (6)

. . . (The Church's view was in fact that humans were not at the centre but at the bottom of the created order.)

"The anti-religious scientists have made the running, publicity wise. And they created the myth, the legend, the falsehood, of science verses religion. It's just totally false because every great scientist has been a religious person - every one! Now I've gone out on a limb! . . .

J& T Every one? . . . .

John If religion is such a complete solution - if there are complete solutions - at the moment we're on the brink of some international conflict because of competing versions of 'God' telling people to go in diametrically opposite directions?

Now - how does the theologian- how does the professor of divinity explain how different Gods can be urging their disciples, or their people - their flocks - to head toward calamity, if indeed they've got the answers?

Keith (7)

What I think about that, John, is that, there aren't different Gods - the Muslim God, and the Jewish God, and the Christian God, and the Hindu God - it's all the same God - and that's one of the things my book says. This is the same God.

Now, you've got different views of God within the traditions. You have got some Christians who want to go to war. They want to kill people. They hate people. . . Catholics have killed Protestants. Protestants have killed Catholics. You've got that conflict.

I think if people read the Bible or the Koran seriously they couldn't be terrorists - it's just not allowed. None of the traditional interpretations would say it is permitted.

It's not different Gods. What it is, is that religion gets mixed up with politics. And people who have political agendas, use religions, to get those who don't know much about religion, to think that that's what religion tells them to do.

John Now, isn't that a bit of politics? . . . That's you putting a bit of politics into your interpretation of what's religion and what's politics.

Keith (8)

Ah, well - what I think is that religion is what the greatest theologians have said. You go to a tradition and say:

What's Judaism? Go and read M. What's Christianity? Read Thomas Aquinas.

Ask the person in the street? That's interesting but it doesn't tell you what the faith is. It might tell you what their understanding of it is. But you'd say, 'Well, it's not an authority. Isn't there someone who's taken as a great authority on this. What would they say?'

John If you have one 'God' - to use the phrase - why is he, or she, such a lousy draftsperson? Why can't they put out documents for their flocks that resolve such ambiguities about what is or isn't acceptable behaviour?

Keith (9)

Well, would you really like to have a document which tells us exactly what to do, which solved all our problems, that gave us nothing to do at all?

John The last time I went to hear a preacher - which is quite a long time ago - to a synagogue - that's exactly what they were purporting to do - that 's one of the reasons I've not been for 20 years.

Keith (10)

You've put your finger right on the problem. That's why I want to say religion should be a guide for the perplexed. It should make you more perplexed. It should make you less certain. It should help you give up the dream of explaining everything. And it should get you to ask the real questions - what is our life abut? What's it's goal?

John But any religious person you talk to, whether they are Islamic, Jewish or Christian it doesn't matter what, they all tell you that's why they are religious - because it tells them how to live their lives!

Keith (11)

Well, I'm a religious person, a Christian minister - it doesn't tell me how to live my life. It's my life.

. . . Sometimes it (religion) makes me feel, well, I shouldn't be doing this, but if I want to know what I should do, I have to decide that. That's a mature religious view - you decide.

Terry What do you say to people who say, 'God told me to do it!' Like George W, who in his famous speech said, "Americans have taken upon themselves the responsibility of setting free the oppressed, and the enslaved, everywhere in the world" (John: "or Osama bin Laden" Terry: "I know") and he went on and said, "this is not something we have chosen for ourselves, this is something God has given us to do." This is the divine mission for the American people - to go around the world , killing them, to set them free from oppression.

There is no answer to that! - once a person uses - "God told me to do it!"

Keith (12)

The answer to that is, "You ought to be more perplexed. And if you knew more about your religion's tradition you would be a lot more perplexed, and you wouldn't load all this onto God. This is my idea."

That's the point of mature religious faith. Humans are responsible. God gives them that responsibility. God doesn't take it away. I think that's the way to see it.

John Thanks Keith . . .

A few questions for your reflection. (From Fr David)

1.. What do you make of Keith's strong statement (Section 5 above) that, "Religion is about coming to terms with human existence . . you don't get 'explanations". Do you like his 'loving relationship' analogy that follows? 2.. Does his claim that the major religions say a lot of similar things about God (Section 7) make us uncomfortable about distinctive claims about Christianity we may want to make? How does having "Jesus Christ" make us different? 3.. In Sections 7 & 8 Keith speaks of how 'religion' can be misused (abused) for political purposes. In what way(s) might a 'genuine' Christian (under 'true authority') feel impelled to express their faith in the political realm? 4.. Do you wish God would give us stronger and clearer directions? (See Section 9) Does you view change over time? 5.. Keith commends that we embrace being 'perplexed' (Section 12). Is this similar to the virtue of 'humility'?