From my liberal friend Mark (you'll figure out when he's responding to something from another poster): I want a TRUE (the truest?) version of Christianity for myself. Anything less than that is inadequate for me. All truth is God's truth. Conversely, all that is not true is not of God ... even if it is in the Bible. All the bible has value but some bits have more value regarding historical accuracy than other bits. Reliability has degrees even within the same text (e.g. within the same gospel) The bible has to be approached like any other ancient manuscript. If one were to look at the life of Julius Caeser the same rules would be applied. The best easy source on the New Testament I have read is John Dominic Crossan & Jonathon L. Reed "Excavating Jesus: Beneath the Stones, Behind the Texts" (HaperSanFrancisco:2001) (... but now a bit outdated. Get the latest available research on anything) Questions need to be asked of each text: - Is this an original manuscript or a copy? (Originals are preferred) - When was it written? (Closest to the time of the person being examined is more reliable) - Where was it written? (Is this a person in the same community or a different community?) - Who was it written by? (Is this a friend or foe?) - What is the author interested in saying and what is left out? (What is the author's bias?) - Why has the author written this text? (Motivation may alter perception) That takes care of the setting ... then .... - How does this text fit into known history, archeology, sociology, politics, customs, literature, etc of the time being considered? - How does this text compare to other texts on the same subject? - What does the text say about itself? (Progression of thought written over a long time period ... or short note without much preparation) Applying this to the New Testament, there are a few problems: - There are NO original texts. They are all copies. - Most texts have been edited (By whom and why?) - One must look at the texts through 1st CENTURY JEWISH eyes and not through 21st century Christian Western eyes. SO ......... following a time line .... I would keep the following ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 50 - 60 CE - 1 Thessalonians (Paul) - Philippians (Paul) - Galatians (Paul) - 1 Corinthians (Paul) - 2 Corinthians (Paul) - Romans (Paul) - Philemon (Paul) 50 - 80 CE - Colossians (May not be Paul) 50 - 95 CE - Hebrews (Not Paul) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Taking the earliest dates the first writer about Jesus is Paul BUT Paul never met the historical time / space Jesus of Nazareth. Paul's letters are written 20 years after Jesus' death. Paul's letters say more about how Paul thought about Jesus than about how other Christians of his time thought about Jesus. Paul hints at his problems with those who knew the real time / space Jesus - James and Peter. How much can we trust of what Paul says about the historical Jesus of Nazareth? Letters start appearing around 50 CE in the style of Paul (but may not be Paul). Why? Note the range of datings in this (50 -60 CE) and further on in this time line dates range up to 160 CE. If the later datings are taken there is even more doubt on ther authenticity / accuracy. If 2 Peter is written in 160 CE then the writer cannot be Peter who was with Jesus in 34 CE! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 65 - 80 CE - Mark's gospel - Source may be Peter - Messianic secret - Based on Deuteronomy / liturgy - All actions could be done in one week ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is the most relaible source on the life of Jesus but it has been edited (eg Mark 16 is a much later addition by someone else) Both Matthew and Luke pinch from Mark (and edit and rearrange the text) in order to write their own gospels. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 70 - 100 CE - James ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James doesn't say much about Jesus' life. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 80 -100 CE - 2 Thessalonians (May not be Paul) - Ephesians (May not be Paul) - Matthew's gospel - Addressed to Diaspora - Written in Antioch - Conservative - 90% of the references to Hell - Based on Moses' life / Exodus - Portrays division between Jews and Christians 80 -110 CE - 1 Peter 80 CE - 130 CE - Luke's gospel, Acts (both written in Caesarea) - Roman recognition sought - Gentile interested in universalism - Focuses on spirit - Based on II Isaiah - Jesus portrayed as greater than Elijah ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Both Matthew and Luke use Mark's gospel but also have another source. If an unknown text it is referred to as Q. It may be oral tradition passed down. No-one is sure. Note the bias mentioned for each gospel.. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 90 - 95 CE - Revelation of John (Not the apostle John) - Apocalyptic genre 90 -120 CE. - I John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude - John's Gospel - Not the apostle - Written in Ephesus - Centred in Judea / Jerusalem not synoptic Gallilee - Actions over 3-4 years instead of synoptics 1 year - Symbolic narrative - Focus on Wisdom and Word - Focus on self rather than kingdom of God - No Ascension or Pentecost ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We start coming into texts written for a purpose other than telling about the historical Jesus of Nazareth to help Christians scattered throughout the world. John's gospel probably has little ever said by the historic Jesus of Nazereth. The Revelation of John has Jesus saying words that were never said by the historical Jesus of Nazareth That is because it is in the literary genre of Apocalypse. Jesus appears to the writer in a dream sate and the words cannot be attributed to the historical Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus' original Jewish disciples of 34 CE would not have recognised the Jesus portrayed in these particular scriptures (i.e. Revelation of John, John's Gospel , 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I would throw out ...... 100 -150 CE -1 Timothy (Not Paul) - 2 Timothy (Not Paul) - Titus (Not Paul) 100 -160 CE - 2 Peter (Not Peter) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Forgeries aren't of any use. These are the very least reliable scriptures on anything to do with the historical Jesus of Nazareth. They are basically forgeries done in the person's name to give authority to their views. Worthy as understanding what changes had occurred in Christianity at that time. All this poses HUGE problems for anyone thinking that the Bible is "inerrant" or "the Word of God". Can 2 Peter possibly be inerrant and the word of God if it is written 130 years after Jesus' death (and after Peter's death in the 1st century) by a person claiming to be the apostle Peter???? Can "all scripture is inspired by God" really be God's revelation to us through Paul when written in 2 Tim. 3:16-17 by someone impersonating Paul????? Refer to http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ~~~ Christianity, as practised by Jesus of Nazareth, was a Jewish sect which worshipped One God - Yahweh. The corruption began after Jesus' death, was strengthened by Paul who had never met Jesus and was intensified after 70 CE reaching it's culmination in Constantine who obliterated Jesus' version of Christianity. ~~~ G K Cheterton said that to keep a white post whoite one must always repaint it. He was correct. ~~~ Theories of God have EVOLVED of many years. Read Joseph Campbell's "The Masks of God". The theory of the Jewish God began as a tribal war god localised to the tribe of Israel. He does not become universal until the prophets in the Axial Age. You cannot read back into Genesis what did not occur until this time. ~~~ Christianity was ORIGINALLY a sect of Judaism. Jesus did not start a separate religion but followed Judaism and Jewish ritual including going to the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and worshipping the One God - Yahweh (not himself!) Read John Dominic Crossan "The Birth of Christianity: Discovering What Happened in the Years Immediately After the Execution of Jesus" (HarperCollins SanFrancisco:1998) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ An Inventory of the Jesus Tradition by Chronological Stratification © John Dominic Crossan Used by permission A. CHRONOLGical STRATIFICATION First Stratum [30-60 CE] 1. First Letter of Paul to the Thessalonians [I Thess]. Written from Corinth in late 50 CE (Koester, 1982:2.112). 2. Letter of Paul to the Galatians [Gal]. Written from Ephesus possibly in the winter of 52-53 CE (Koester, 1982:2.116). 3. First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians [1 Cor]. Written from Ephesus in the winter of 53-54 CE (Koester, 1982:2.121). 4. Letter of Paul to the Romans [Rom]. Written from Corinth in the winter of 55-56 CE (Koester, 1982:2.138). 5. Gospel of Thomas I [Gos. Thom. I]. ... 6. Egerton Gospel [Eger. Gos.]. .... 7. Papyrus Vindobonensis Greek 2325 [P. Vienna G. 2325]. ... 8. Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 1224 [P. Oxy. 1224]. .... 9. Gospel of the Hebrews [Gos. Heb]. ... 10. Sayings Gospel Q now imbedded within the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. A serial collection of Jesus' sayings but with more compositional organization than the Gospel of Thomas. Composed by the 50s, and possibly at Tiberias in Galilee, it contains no passion or resurrection account but presumes the same myth of divine Wisdom as do the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of the Hebrews. There may be three successive layers in its development: a sapiential layer (1Q), an apocalyptic layer (2Q), and an introductory layer (3Q) and it is inventoried within those three rubrics (Kloppenborg, 1987, 1988). 11. Miracles Collection now imbedded within the Gospels of Mark and John. Of the seven miracles in John 2-9, the five in John 5,6 (two),9,11 which have Markan parallels, appear in the same order in Mark 2,6 (two),8 and Secret Mark. Collections of Jesus' deeds, like collections of Jesus' words, were already being composed by the 50s CE. 12. Apocalyptic Scenario now imbedded in Didache 16 and Matthew 24. There is a common apocalyptic source behind both Did. 16:3-8 and Matt 24:10-12,30a which was not known or used by Mark 13 (Kloppenborg, 1979). 13. Cross Gospel now imbedded in the Gospel of Peter [Gos. Pet.]. It contained, at least, a linked narrative of Crucifixion and Deposition in 1:1-2 & 2:5b-6:22, of Tomb and Guards in 7:25 & 8:28-9:34, and of Resurrection and Confession in 9:35-10:42 & 11:45-49. Composed by the 50s, and possibly at Sepphoris in Galilee, it is the single source of the intracanonical passion accounts (Crossan, 1985, 1988). A major alternative proposal is that a single Passion Source was used independently by Mark, John, and the Gospel of Peter (Koester, 1990:220). Second Stratum [60-80 CE] 14. Gospel of the Egyptians [Gos. Eg.]. ... 15. Secret Gospel of Mark [Secret Mark]. The first version of the Gospel of Mark and contained the accounts of the Dead Man Raised in 1v20-2r11a after Mark 10:32-34 and of the Raised Man's Family in 2r14b-216 after Mark 10:35-46a (Smith, 1973ab). This version was composed in the early 70s but those units were immediately interpreted by libertine gnostics, proleptic Carpocratian as it were, similar to those Paul encountered at Corinth (Crossan, 1985). 16. Gospel of Mark [Mark]. The second version of Mark expurgated those passages but left their textual debris strewn across its text. That may well have been done, with the minimal rewriting necessary, by the end of the 70s CE (Crossan, 1985; but see Koester, 1983). 17. Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 840 [P. Oxy. 840]. ... 18. Gospel of Thomas II [Gos. Thom. II]. ... 19. Dialogue Collection now imbedded within the Dialogue of the Savior (CG III,5 ). The dialogues between Jesus, Judas, Matthew, and Mariam, which constitute more than half this document, are created by expanding a collection of Jesus' sayings which is independent of the intracanonical gospels. This source is still clearly distinguishable in Dial. Sav. 124,23-127,18; 131,19-132,15; 137,3-147,22 (Pagels & Koester, 1978; Emmel, Koester, & Pagels, 1984) and shows a more developed dialogue format than in the Gospel of Thomas or the Sayings Gospel Q (Koester, 1980b:255-256). 20. Signs Gospel or Book of Signs now imbedded within the Gospel of John. In John 2-14 the distinctive theology involves a combination of miracle and discourse wherein the earlier Miracles Collection is integrated with an independent collection of the sayings of Jesus so that physical miracles become signs pointing, through their attendant discourses, to spiritual realities. It is independent of the three Synoptic Gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke. A more difficult question is whether it had anything about John the Baptist and an even more difficult one is whether it had any passion and resurrection account. If it had neither, their later presence might be due to and dependent on the Synoptic accounts. 21. Letter to the Colossians [Col]. Written most likely not by Paul himself but posthumously by one of his students in his name (Koester, 1982:2.261-267). THIRD STRATUM [80-120 CE] 22. Gospel of Matthew [Matt]. Written around 90 CE and possibly at Syrian Antioch, it used, apart from other data, the Gospel of Mark and the Sayings Gospel Q for its pre-passion narrative, and the Gospel of Mark and the Cross Gospel for its passion and resurrection ac-count (Crossan, 1988). 23. Gospel of Luke [Luke]. Written possibly as early as the 90s but before John 1-20 which used its passion and resurrection account. Like the Gospel of Matthew, it used, apart from much other data, the Gospel of Mark and the Sayings Gospel Q for its pre-passion narrative, and the Gospel of Mark and the Cross Gospel for its passion and resurrection ac-count (Crossan, 1988). 24. Revelation/Apocalypse of John [Rev]. Written in Asia Minor towards the end of the first century CE by a church leader named John exiled to the island of Patmos presumably under Domitian (Koester, 1982:2.250). 25. First Letter of Clement [1 Clem.]. .... 26. Epistle of Barnabas [Barn.]. ... 27. Didache 1:1-3a & 2:2-16:2 [Did.]..... 28. Shepherd of Hermas [Herm. Vis.; Herm. Man.; Herm Sim.]. ... 29. Letter of James [Jas]. Written in Syria possibly around 100 CE, it indicates the continuing importance of James of Jerusalem in terms of ethics and offices. It criticizes misinterpretations of Paul's teachings (Koester 1982:2.156-157). 30. Gospel of John I [John]. The first edition of the Gospel of John was composed, very early in the second century CE and under the pressure of Synoptic ascendancy, as a combination of the Johannine Signs Gospel and the Synoptic traditions about the passion and resurrection. It is dependent, but very creatively so, on the Cross Gospel and the Synoptic gospels for its passion and resurrection account (Crossan, 1988). The earliest extant fragment of John is dated to about 125 CE. 31-37. Letters of Ignatius, To the Ephesians [Ign. Eph.]; To the Magnesians [Ign. Mag.]; To the Trallians [Ign. Trall ]; To the Romans [Ign. Rom.]; To the Philadelphians [Ign. Phil.]; To the Smyrnaeans [Ign. Smyrn.]; To Polycarp [Ign. Pol ]. .... 38. First Letter of Peter [1 Pet]. Written from Rome and pseudepigraphically attributed to Peter, it was sent to encourage persecuted Christians around 112 CE in the situation known from the letters of Pliny the Younger to Trajan (Koester, 1982:2.292-297). 39. Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians 13-14 [Pol. Phil.]. ... 40. First Letter of John [1 John]. Interpretations, catholic against gnostic, of the Gospel of John caused a split within the Johannine community and this letter was written to underline the catholic reading of that text (Brown, 1979, 1982). The opposite reading may be seen in the Acts of John 87-105 (Koester, 1982:2.192-198; Cameron, 1982:87-96). FOURTH STRATUM [120-150 CE] 41. Gospel of John II [John]. A second edition of the Gospel of John is indicated most clearly by the appended John 21 which underlines not only Synoptic but Petrine ascendancy. Many other additions such as 1:1-18: 6:51b-58; 15-17; and the Beloved Disciple passages, may also have been added at this late stage. 42. Acts of the Apostles [Acts]. Although probably conceived, along with the Gospel of Luke, as the second part of a two-volume writing, this part was probably written some time after its predecessor. 43. Apocryphon of James [Ap. Jas.]. .... 44. First Letter to Timothy [1 Tim]. The three Pastoral Epistles of 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus were composed by the same author in the general Aegean area during the peaceful years after 120 CE and were pseudepigraphically attributed to Paul. 1 Timothy is concerned with ethics and offices as a defense against gnostic inroads (Koester, 1982.2:297-305). 45. Second Letter to Timothy [2 Tim]. Written in the format of a last will and testament, 2 Timothy was originally the last of the three Pastoral Epistles but with the same emphasis on ethics and offices found in all three (Koester, 1982:2.297-305). 46. Second Letter of Peter [2 Pet]. Pseudepigraphically attributed to Peter, this letter, which uses 1 Peter and Jude, was written in the second quarter of the second century CE (Koester, 1082:2.295-297). 47. Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians 1-12 [Pol.]. .... 48. Second Letter of Clement [2 Clem.]. ... 49. Gospel of the Nazoreans [Gos. Naz.]. ... 50.Gospel of the Ebionites [Gos. Eb.]. .... 51. Didache 1:3b-2:1 [Did.]. ... 52. Gospel of Peter [Gos. Pet.]..... from http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan1.rtf ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 'Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law, not to perpetuate it, as He was / is the Lamb of God that takes away sin.' According to PAUL - not according to Jesus of Nzareth. "Who is Christ for us today?" - Bonhoeffer 'It is quite some time since I read the life of Bonhoeffer' Read his "Letters And Papers From Prison" which are much more useful. 'The basic concepts of the Christian faith in the grouping of the Ten Commandments into two, as Jesus did, eg Love God and love your neighbour, and listing under each how they can be followed can clarify the form/s of Christianity for the world today.' But there is nothing in the these that says we must worship Jesus of Nazareth as God, or that God's Messiah is God or that in must be "born again" or that one must "invite Jesus into your heart". 'But remember that Jesus was God' Jesus of Nazareth never said so. 'God took our sins upon Himself in the death of Jesus Christ' Is God REALLY interested in human sacrifice???? Isaiah didn't think so!!!! .... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Isaiah 1 11 "The multitude of your sacrifices- what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. 12 When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? 13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations- I cannot bear your evil assemblies. 14 Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts my soul hates. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. 15 When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood; 16 wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, 17 learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. [a] Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow. 18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. 19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; 20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken. "... And what has the Lord required of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly before your God." (Micah 6:8, NIV) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The gospel / GOOD NEWS is not the bad news that God became a man and died on a cross to make himself happy with a human sacrifice. The GOOD NEWS is that God forgives sin if you repent and turn to Him. "Look unto Me [YAHWEH], and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I [YAHWEH] am God, and there is none else [INCLUDING JESUS OF NAZARETH]." Isaiah 45:21 "I (YAHWEH NOT YAHWEH'S MESSIAH), even I ( NOT YAHWEH'S MESSIAH), am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. " - Isaiah 43:25 He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God ? Micah 6:8 RSV Acts 10:34ff.: "truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." NOTE: "God was IN Christ" (2 Cor. 5:19-21). NOT "God WAS Christ" That's worthy of a HalleluJAH (not a HalleluJesus). ##################################### READING LIST: Joseph Campbell "The Masks of God: Occidental Mythology" (Penguin / Arkana: 1964) John Dominic Crossan & Jonathon L. Reed "Excavating Jesus: Beneath the Stones, Behind the Texts" (HarperSanFrancisco:2001) John Dominic Crossan "The Birth of Christianity: Discovering What Happened in the Years Immediately After the Execution of Jesus" (HarperCollins SanFrancisco:1998) Dietrich Bonhoeffer "Letters And Papers From Prison" (Collins Fontana: 1959)
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