Message: 1 Jennifer, can you elaborate please? I've worked in healthy workplaces in the past. While employees' input was valued in a meaningful way (as opposed to inviting it and handing out cheap rewards like doggy biscuits occasionally to those management decided had merit), somebody was still in charge. I'm confused by your statement. CL Queste, I think it is his responsibility because it is his clinic and dysfunction runs from the top down in my opinion.

Agreed. Bullying thrives in an authoritarian top down management style. Most targets work comfortably in a collaborative setting. Collaboration works best with a bottom up approach. Jennifer Message: 2

Sue, I don't know of any stories like that, but I'm sure they must exist. It seems this is the type of thing worth lobbying government about in an effort to make it illegal. I have no experience in that sort of thing. Does anyone have any ideas? CL Feisty; Genuardi, Reenie; SwanRose; The porch; O Dell, Karen; Field, Tim; Hollands, Judith I have been writing you all about the waiver/release of responsibility that a potential employer assumed I would sign since it was w/the application on the day of the interview. I was given a lot of wonderful advice/suggestions from all of you-about how these are used to get info from present employers because they waive my legal right to prosecute if that employer makes defamatory statements about me AND more importantly---it completely supercedes the rule employers must follow limiting their comments to dates of employement and acknowledgement of employment. Well, I just came from the hairdresser, and he told me one of his customers just went through this within the last 2 weeks, and she SIGNED THE WAIVER....GUESS WHAT? THAT waiver form was FAXED to her present employer by the time she returned to the office from the interview. He didn't say if she lost her job, but I'm sure it's a possibility. This is a powder-keg for us. This is such a breach of our privacy rights, and borders on emotional blackmail. I was under the impression these were used AFTER the new employer HIRED the person, but I'm wrong... Does anyone know of cases where this has caused loss of employment or any other problems in the workplace? Please give me your input. I am appalled at this practice. Sue Message: 3 Susan, I wrote an email to the address you provided. Yet it was returned. Maybe you can provide me with the resource and I will try to find this person.

I've just verified the address as: My letter was intended to expand bullying from children to adults. It will be a real eye-opener for the audience, as well as giving some rehumanization to the news media. Excellent. Oprah did a show on this a few years ago, yet it wasn't enough. I am determined to get it through on TV, ie. bullying in the workplace. You go girl!!! I have the people and their stories. I'm sure there are Ninevites willing to share as well. Also, I know of others.

So, if you can provide me with the resource of where to write I would be most grateful. See above. Jennifer Message: 4 Julie, I'm confused. What do you mean by bribe? I see it as more of a punishment. There was nothing negative in my file until I filed a grievance about someone else's behavior. When I did that, they dug back to a time before my last satisfactory review and wrote me up for falling behind (when I had had valid reason for doing so and it's common knowledge we all fall behind from time to time anyhow and also without the required "informal counseling" preceding this written reprimand). The union rep, the union steward and one other person have suggested it be removed as part of the resolution of my initial grievance. That request has been stone walled. They won't consider it or even look into it (just as they did with the behavior prompting my grievance). I've offered that I will let things go if they remove it because I want to continue working there and I don't like being an enemy of management. I suppose it could be a bribe on my part, since I could be suing for emotional damages and notifying the authorities of the danger they put the public in when they mishandled things in my absence. Is that what you meant? I am just getting to the point of making those other possibilities clear to them because I am fed up with not being heard or taken seriously after years of dedicated service to them. I would really like your input, so I am going to answer your questions individually below. What blows my mind most is that the rep has moved other grievances to arbitration recently, and most or all of them were filed after my initial grievance. One of them was on behalf of an employee who needed to hit bottom and probably deserved to be disciplined. Fortunately for her, she screwed up and got arrested recently, so she will be facing consequences and hopefully will be readily accepting help to change her lifestyle. Why would the rep just sit on mine for so long when management has obstinately refused to consider treating mine fairly? I didn't drop my grievance(s). I don't think the union can drop me for trying to talk with management directly, can they? Civil Rights openly offers that it's a good thing if I can work this out without them. Are unions' policies different on that? I did go to the director for help. I'm regretting having done so, except that it makes it just that much more clear that management is unwilling to consider all the facts. I heard back from administration yesterday that the director told the deputy director to look into it and get back to me. He is going to be gone until week after next, so all of it will be delayed. Plus, I heard that the deputy director is part of the reason for the antagonistic split between employees and supervision. I told the secretary who called that I am not going to object to the deputy director looking into it, but I have reservations about trusting him to handle investigating things. I also told her that he doesn't have all the facts and I was hoping to meet with someone and have a dialogue about everything, rather than someone "looking into" things without all of the facts or issues at hand. There was only one sign that perhaps there will be a positive result of this. There was a lunch time get together in which the director eats lunch with staff and staff are allowed to ask questions yesterday. The union steward attended it. The deputy director showed toward the end. When the steward was leaving, he went to shake hands with the deputy director. Everyone was watching. It should have been a display of cooperative attitude between staff and administration. Instead, when the steward held his hand out, the deputy director turned red in the face and said to him (where the director and other staff could hear and see it), "Don't piss me off!" In the past, the deputy director and the steward would exchange snide cordialness when they ran into each other. I believe this was the first demonstration of open hostility. There could be a number of reasons for what happened, but I wonder if maybe the director kind of got on the deputy director for choosing not to watch what was happening in my case closer? I had met with deputy director at his request very early on and had presented my concerns about the rumors that I was going to be disciplined after filing a grievance. He had refused to consider that the discipline was retaliatory and had take a hands off approach to the whole thing. I had explained this to the secretary when I first requested the meeting with the director. Even if this is why he was so very angry yesterday, I don't think it bodes well for him to be left in charge of checking things out. On the other hand, perhaps handing it off to the deputy director was the director's way of giving the guy a second chance to handle things right, so he is under pressure to be especially carefully impartial? I'm feeling down today about it all. I spoke yesterday with a female administrator who had seemed supportive at one time. She implied that I was being the bully in this by not letting things go and leaving the paper in my file. She said I should think about my long term future. Things didn't get nasty, but it was not a supportive exchange. I'm feeling even more a fool for thinking anyone in management would understand how they added insult to injury in numerous ways and that the one way they can help correct the insulting treatment is to remove that paper. I'm still shocked that they are so quick to discount and harm me without investigation into the facts, especially when drunks and addicts and crazy people stay on for entire careers at the place. They were promoting me faster than I wanted. I haven 't changed. I was wrongfully attacked by my supervisor and they are punishing me for it. Suddenly, I'm a troublemaker. I have specifically tried to minimize the impact of my situation while still standing up for my personal safety. If I were a troublemaker, they would be feeling a lot more impact from the outside by now. I would think they would recognize the generosity on my part, but they don't. You wrote: CL-obviously the removal of the document is a bribe. but, why do they want you out? if it's a class action, you are part of it anyway. am i missing something? my instinct is to stay resolute and not back down on anything. i would keep all my balls in the air, and let it play out. are you familiar with "the whistle blowers act"? it clearly states that it is against the law to retaliate against an employee who has reported an illegal or unsafe workplace condition, (i am paraphrasing here)< I have not withdrawn any complaints or grievances at this point. I've been butting heads with the rep, though, who wants me to. He isn't giving me a straight answer for why he wants that and my steward says my case is very strong (and apparently Civil Rights sees it that way also or they wouldn't be involved). That's why I don't trust the rep's motives. I have openly told administration that I believe the union's presence has just made things worse because there is a lack of assertive (as opposed to aggressive or passive) representation. I hope they can't force termination of my grievances based on my expression of opinion. Wouldn't that fall under free speech laws? I asked the steward why he was checking into separating my second grievance from the class action. I said I expected my situation should count as evidence to that grievance, even if it is resolved. He said he would be checking into that possibility. i think that the notion of dealing directly with the administration is wishful thinking, unless your bully has absolutely no track record and this issue is brand new to them, but i doubt it.< The supervisor that acted inappropriately had no track record. That's why I felt it was so important to document the complaint, even if it didn't result in action against him. The general practice by our direct administrators of punishing employees who file grievances is well known. The director has allegedly repaired things when a similar thing happened to a coworker years ago, so he has a track record as far as that goes. Unfortunately, it looks like your skepticism is correct. (see above)

how long have you been at your present job? <

6 years. My supervisor has been with our employer much longer than that, but has only been a supervisor for three years (and I heard he wasn't very good supervising the unit he was first assigned to, but more for reasons of incompetence than bullying/harassment). has he/she done this before? < not to my knowledge, expect shaking a fist at a female peer a few years ago during a mutual argument-very different circumstances and more understandable than what he did with me was it reported?< no, but it was witnessed by others was it investigated? < no i understand how you feel, I am basically in the same boat. i don't entirely trust the union, but if i have to pick sides, i'm going union.< Understood. It sounds like your union is more effective than ours though.

if your union gets wind that you are siding with the administration, they may drop you like a hot potato < I hope not. I haven't sided with anyone at this point, but I am questioning my loyalties. I've been paying big bucks for their representation for years and am just utilizing it now for the first time. How can they dump me? I am paying for their services. (you dumped them, they are in the clear < But I didn't. I just chose to go to administration directly and offer them the opportunity to set the record straight themselves before we end up in court. In spite of my irritation with the union's failure to move along with my case, I am also continuing to offer to testify on behalf of the union in regards to the class action thing. How can they say I dumped them? Is that legal? (they don't have to worry about charges you could bring against them for inadequate representation) < Why not? I don't understand. and, after all, they have plenty of other dicey workplaces to go to. <

???? Mine is one of many grievances emanating from the same workplace. now you're back dealing with the upstairs bully boys/women who possibly ignored it all in the first place with a burned bridge behind you.< I haven't burned it yet, have I? Relations may be strained, but they should expect that by now with the way their own contract guidelines haven't been followed. Once I do sue them or dump them or cancel my membership, then I can see how the bridge is burned, but that hasn't happened yet.

no doubt, they are all negotiating with each other without you< Big time! My rep says he has spoken with them repeatedly, but I have received no concrete reason for not moving forward. All the rep keeps saying is that they won't remove the paper form my file. Sometimes he gets nasty and says there is proof this is retaliatory. If there isn't reason to treat it as such, why did Civil Rights take it on? I think this rep is in management's pocket. He seems much more eager to move on with superfluous grievances than with mine. It doesn't make sense. ? but my advise is to not to take the bribe, unless you feel that this is all you are going to get out of this, and are satisfied with that. it's your choice. no one dared to put anything in my file so i don't really know how that feels, but i can imagine.< Because it's the only tangible damage done (other than emotional, which is hard to prove and embarrassing to take on), I believe that is as much as I can expect. It's the only thing standing in the way of resolving my grievance and the only reason Civil Rights is still involved now that they finally (if delinquently) moved me to another staff. You are lucky. It hurts a great deal to have that there. I'm one of those straight "A" student types. I took more responsibility for falling behind (last year already???) than I even should have, but I just hate being less than perfect. At the time of my review last spring, I was beating myself up for it, but my supervisor was saying it happens and was looking forward to me getting back on track after my surgery. Because he lost control of himself, I never was afforded that opportunity. I realize now that I have been given all my old work back (which is unprecedented), that there was more to it even than my physical state. It was the nature of the things I was working on at the time that caused the overdue deadlines. The staff that usually handle the type of work I was being given at the time aren't even held to deadlines because it's impossible. Everybody knows that everyone falls behind from time to time anyhow, and there are men who are chronically delinquent who haven't been held responsible at all. I can't possibly call it fair to put a negative slip in my file, unless they also write up everyone else who has fallen behind in the last year and they do so without following the proper procedural steps. I can't access others' stats to prove the discrepancy on my own, but I know the evidence is there, and the union and Civil Rights should be able to get those records. I keep pointing out to administration that if I am truly incompetent, they will find ample opportunity to go after me without that slip, but the slip says I have to meet policy 100 %or be disciplined. I maintain, though I have been told I can argue the merits of it at that point, that it holds me to a higher standard than my coworkers and the reason it's there is it was the only way they could punish me that I can't fight (because it isn't considered "discipline" by the union-it's pre-discipline). If they had outright disciplined me, as they originally promised, I would have fought it and won, hands down. I'm convinced that, the next time I miss a deadline (as will happen because it happens all the time to everyone), they are going to go after me as harshly as they think they can get away with. If I allow the retaliatory pre-discipline to stay, they will go after me harsher than if I fought it and won. Better yet than fighting it and winning through the courts is getting administration to remove it on their own. It would actually be a win-win for them to do so. Someone or some group of someones would look like heroes in the eyes of staff who have watched this sort of retaliation occur for years. Plus, they would be avoiding formal charges and avoiding their actions becoming public knowledge. I'm sure they are going to go after me at any opportunity now. If we resolve things peaceably, there is slightly less reason for me to feel at risk of "special treatment". I will have shown them good will by dropping my own cases against them, even if I have to tell the truth at an arbitration on a class level. They will look better when and if I do testify at arbitration if I am also testifying that they repaired my situation on their own than if I testify that I repeatedly tried to work things out and they refused to consider it. What are your thoughts on this? My stance is that i reported a condition to my union, they investigated and filed the charges on behalf of myself and others. the administration is accountable to the UNION-not to me directly. let them all figure it out. it's their mess. still, all parties involved are aware that i'm waiting and watching...i hope this is helpful in some way. let me know how you are doing.http://explorer.msn.com Message: 5

I already did it. I'm not feeling good about it at all. Please see my response to Julie for details. CR has made their presence known and felt. I have my doubts that personnel responded in a timely manner. I'm sure it will have to go to court to get CR resolved. Since our office is closed Monday, it's either going or not now. I just got my hopes up when I heard a coworker say there was someone who listens up above at our agency, so I tried to work things out and feel better about he place and feel more secure about my future there. now I ma being told I have less of a future there because of this attempt at cooperation. Oh well. CL CL,

I called the director to see if I could get a meeting with him to iron things out reasonably and without a fight.

I'd be very careful about this. I understand why you would want to try this, but it is dangerous. If you decide to go through with this meeting, do not go in alone. Take a witness of your choosing. I was just thinking that I need to d out hofinw I protect myself from future retaliation without a signed agreement with Civil Rights. Given the fact that you had to go to CR in the first place, I'd say this is extremely unlikely and I'd be suspicious of any offer they make. Maybe we can work it out and send her (CR rep) the paperwork for her to sign as well, saving her the trip for mediation and still getting that protection.

CR needs to make their presence known-and felt. Jennifer Message: 6 Hi Jennifer: Thank you. I am going to try to put through my email again to Mr. Balaker Let's see if he responds. Bullying and social cruelties among children are of no less magnitude than that which goes on in the adult population. I am determined to get some type of response. If not, I am going elsewhere with this phenomenon. Best regards, Susan S. Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations Message: 7 Hi Jennifer: I just re-sent my letter to ABC. I will definitely keep you posted as to any response I receive from him. Best regards to you. Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations

Message: 8 In a message dated 11/8/01 12:43:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: << My problem with this councilor is that she has been told in private on many occasions that her approach is what is triggering Nick! I have no problem with what she wants to accomplish, however, I feel that her telling him that I "Don't exist" has to traumatize him, especially after the losses he has already suffered! I think it sets him off! Also, the things she wants to try to get him to conform have been tried before and don't work, they set him off! She is a very stubborn person and will not see things any other way bur hers. Yesterday I spoke with her supervisor and explained my feelings. The supervisor told me they were having a team meeting today and she would get back to me. This councilor knows the stress I am under and that I have not been feeling well and she took it upon herself to rip me up one side and down the other and let me know that I am a weak person with no backbone, because I give Nick choices for breakfast and he doesn't earn that privilege in her mind! She also let me know just what she thinks of my oldest son, who she dislikes immensely! (Matt doesn't like her, but has always been friendly and respectful of her the few times they have been here at the same time)

She is an extremely Hyper personality and yesterday told Nick that if she couldn't get him under her control and make him show respect for her and comply with everything she tells him, she will see to it that he is put in a program outside the home! This is totally stepping outside of her bounds! She is trying to scare him! He does not need to be traumatized further. The fact of the matter is, he pushes her buttons because he is so easy to set off! When she is not here he is not like this. He does have behavior problems with me, bur has been doing well and for the most part the behavior problems he has had over the past month and a half have been with her after she triggers him! It is almost like a side show! Tomorrow I will know better what the agency plans to do. But I will also let them know how I feel about all of this and if it continues, she is out of here! That would be a shame, because that is what Nick wants! I do not want him to think this a victory. Today he came home from school, complied with all he was given to do, (chores, homework, etc.) we had dinner, he watched TV for half an hour, took a bath and got ready for bed with no problems! I probably will not see any explosions from him again until Monday after school when she brings him home! This is very bewildering to me! The reason I asked if you had read the book is that I wanted another perspective. I have always maintained that Nick does not want to act this way and wishes openly that he could change. The book "The explosive child" explains it in a nutshell...".these children do not choose to be explosive and noncompliant.....any more than a child would chose to have a reading disability...but are delayed in the process of developing the skills that are critical to being flexible and tolerating frustration (or have significant difficulty applying these skills when they most need too)." It also talks in depth of the positive reinforcement and charts, etc. that are so typical in dealing with children with behavioral disorders and the fact that many of them do not work. I will be learning what does work and am grateful for that! This councilor totally dismisses this as Bunk! She knows better! She feels that total depravation of everything is the only way Nick will learn anything, this includes my affection for him! She has made that all too clear! I feel it is too over the top and will trigger and further traumatize him! Nick has had many different types of behavioral programs and for the most part only work to a point with him. He needs to be able to be so aware of himself every moment so that when he is about to explode (I call his episodes spontaneous combustion) that he will be able to ward them off. This is the type of support we both need, not constant punishment and remuneration! He has little or no self esteem as it is. If anything, I can see where as he gets older he will become a bully, just to be heard! I know that is simplifying things a bit, but I think you know what I mean. As far as my sleep goes, It doesn't matter how much sleep I get during the night, lately all I want to do is sleep! That is what is concerning me! Tonight I almost let myself go back to bed at 8! I forced myself to do a few things, (put in a load of laundry, empty and reload the dishwasher, make Nick's lunch for school, etc. Tomorrow I will force myself to go out, but this is all totally not like me! I am usually upbeat, positive and a fighter! I am a survivor by nature and don't know what is going on with me now! How long do these periods usually last for? I have spoken to David Yamada, he was kind enough to send me the Namies book as well as a copy of the law journal in which he is published. He also gave me the name of a Dr. to contact as a possible witness in my case. Are you sure I can't convince you to testify Susan? I need people I can trust! I have the feeling that all these Dr.'s care about is the money and some of them are so ridiculous! Where do I draw the line? I don't mind paying and have money put aside in a special fund, but, each time we find a specialist they want more and more money! I realize that the books are not the total answer, but if Nick's Dr. is recommending them to everyone so they can understand what is going on with him to be better able to help him than who is this councilor to dismiss the Dr.! >> Hi Kathy: I am not sure if I responded to his email, but since I kept it on my New Mail list, I suspect I did not. Kids and adults with ADD or ADHD have irregular inibitory and excitory brain mechanisms, which accounts for moments of focusing, and other times of complete excitation. Dr. Hallawell speaks about this in his book. It has been my experience with ADHD children that a behavioral plan needs to be implemented by the parents. It should be clearly written out for the parent(s) and explained to the child in terms of earning points. There is no "punishment" involved, and taking things away from the child affords little, if any change in behavior. In fact, it may serve to reduce their already lowered self-worth. For example: Let's say you want Nick to take out the trash, and you've made it known that this is a regular task you'd like him to do. If you have to ask him more than twice, he doesn't receive a point for that task. So let's say in one day he can earn up to 25 points for various behaviors, he may receive only 24 for the day. At the end of the week all points are added up, and he will always receive something at the end of the week. Even if you have to use stickers, or stars on the calendar. ADHD kids are punished enough. You are correct, they do not want to behave the ways the can't control. Regarding your quiery about my expert witness testimony, I simply do not have enough time to do so. I am completely swamped with work and as an aside, domestic responsibilities. As an expert witness, I would have to review many reports, conduct interviews, etc. In order to take responsibility as an expert witness, particularly when I have not at all been involved with the case, would take a great deal of time, and there is always the uncertainty that I may be confronted with being an outsider. Not that the latter intimidates me, I just do not have the time to undertake this responsibility. Perhaps David Yamada's doctor will be of help to you. Best regards, and good luck to you.

Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations

Message: 9 Personal Bill of Rights 1. I have the right to ask for what I want. 2. I have the right to say no to requests or demands I can't meet. 3. I have the right to express my feelings, positive or negative. 4. I have the right to change my mind. 5. I have the right to make mistakes and not have to be perfect. 6. I have the right to follow my own values and standards. 7. I have the right to say no to anything when I feel I am not ready, it is unsafe, or it violates my values. 8. I have the right to determine my own priorities. 9. I have the right not to be responsible for others' behavior, actions, feelings, or problems. 10. I have the right to expect honesty from others. 11. I have the right to be angry at someone I love. 12. I have the right to be uniquely myself. 13. I have the right to feel scared and say "I'm afraid." 14. I have the right to say "I don't know." 15. I have the right not to give excuses or reasons for my behavior. 16. I have the right to make decisions based on my feelings. 17. I have the right to my own needs for personal space and time. 18. I have the right to be playful and frivolous. 19. I have the right to be healthier than those around me. 20. I have the right to be in a non-abusive environment. 21. I have the right to make friends and be comfortable around people. 22. I have the right to change and grow. 23. I have the right to have my needs and wants respected by others. 24. I have the right to be treated with dignity and respect. 25. I have the right to be happy.

Photocopy the above list and post it in a conspicuous place. By taking time to carefully read through the list every day, you will eventually learn to accept that you are entitled to each one of the rights enumerated. With complements: Susan Shaub Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations

Message: 10 Thank you, Susan! Those are wonderful. I'm thinking I need to copy them and post them in my cubicle at work where I will see them daily and, . . .(warning, the following is said out of bitterness toward past behaviors and entirely tongue in cheek). . . if Creepy is still sneaking into the office on weekends and still nosing around my work area, looking for things to attack me for, he can see them too! ;)

Seriously, I think a nice leafy border would look very nice around them. Thank you for suggesting we post them! CL Message: 11 In a message dated 11/8/01 10:11:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: << he just is into saving money. Hi Queste: Now you have an anchor! If the director is "into saving money," he may also want to know what the barriers are that prevent him from increasing money flow. While this is really not your terrain as a therapist working in an agency, you might as well let him know a bit about organizational psychology and that effective leadership is inspiring and guiding. It is the ability to negotiate, earn the loyalty of employees, and initiating, promoting or managing change. In a sense it is a gift the leader gives to his employees and him/herself. This is a promoter of dignity, respect and ultimate win-win situations rather than the zero-sum game. As long as you've been so bullied, why not get on the campaign in your own way, to inspire ideas for continuous improvement in the workplace. Best regards, Susan

Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations

Message: 12 In a message dated 11/10/01 4:55:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes: << Those are wonderful. I'm thinking I need to copy them and post them in my cubicle at work where I will see them daily and, . . .(warning, the following is said out of bitterness toward past behaviors and entirely tongue in cheek). . . if Creepy is still sneaking into the office on weekends and still nosing around my work area, looking for things to attack me for, he can see them too! ;)

Seriously, I think a nice leafy border would look very nice around them. Thank you for suggesting we post them! CL >> Hi CL: Re type it, re-font it, boarder it, print it on some nice laser or colored paper. I thought it may be helpful to members. Leafy border sounds great! Like the Declaration of Independence, it was inked on parchment. Have fun with it. Best regards, Susan Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations

Message: 13 Hi Queste: Not sure if I recommended this to you, but I think it will give you some insight. Please get hold of "Working With Emotional Intelligence" by Daniel Goleman. It's one excellent text explaining emotional intelligence and why it can be crucial to your career. It will give you some insight into dysfunctional orgs and leadership deficits. Regards,

Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations

Message: 14 Personally, while it may not be explicitly illegal, I am not sure such a waiver can be upheld in court.

Lynn Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com Message: 15 I would add to that the following: I have a right to make a living where my interests, skills and competencies lie, without obstruction, "politics" or other negativity standing in my way. Lynn Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com Message: 16 In a message dated 11/10/01 5:23:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes: << I would add to that the following: I have a right to make a living where my interests, skills and competencies lie, without obstruction, "politics" or other negativity standing in my way.

Add whatever suits you. Susan Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations Message: 17 I have recently been fired after repeated bullying behaviors from my previous employer. I kept records of many incident reports and performance evaluation comments in my desk. The day I was terminated, the HR person told me to unpack my desk while she watched. She would not allow me to take anything related to the company like my documented email exchanges, incident report documentation and other evidence of bullying. Can they take this evidence away? Message: 18 You should've taken that stuff home long before this occurred...when you even have an inkling you're headed for trouble, you should scour your desk of all important documents...she knew they were in there, anyway...my boss loves to go through our desks so we learned not to leave ANYTHING in the office!Sue wrote: I have recently been fired after repeated bullying behaviors from my previous employer. I kept records of many incident reports and performance evaluation comments in my desk. The day I was terminated, the HR person told me to unpack my desk while she watched. She would not allow me to take anything related to the company like my documented email exchanges, incident report documentation and other evidence of bullying. Can they take this evidence away? Message: 19 I have to share something with you that will flip you out entirely....I spoke to someone who warned me about the very agency I interviewed with..informed me that there's a consistent turnover there....I told the one girl about that reference waiver they wanted me to sign...then we talked about a company

where one girl worked as a supervisor for 7 years... we were discussing different people we both now....guess what? The personnel director who interviewed me was under my friend's supervision at a local company and she stated that this personnel director when under her supervision turned out to be a liar, a manipulator and cutthroat...this is the very same person that interviewed me....turns out she LIED to me in the interview! she told me she had just moved here from FLA and was working at the agency for a total of 9 months...guess what, she moved here from FLA many years ago, and spent the last 6 of those 9 months selling "Pampered Chef" home party product until she got hired at that agency only 3 months ago.... God works in very very mysterious ways, doesn't he??????????? Sue Message: 20 Unfortunately they are most likely within their "rights" to determine what is company property. Note this extends itself into email and in some cases phone conversations as well. I kept my notes posted online with a third-party Internet provider, keeping nothing at work. If they did provide documentation it would go home with me that day and emails I wanted to keep I would be forwarded to my home, then Sent messages details were deleted immediately. I have recently been fired after repeated bullying behaviors from my previous employer. I kept records of many incident reports and Message: 21 Hi,

First of all, I recommend you seek an attorney ASAP. You need legal advice right away, before the thought of destroying documents becomes reality. It seems bullying employers are generally cocky enough to break the law in their quest to destroy. That being said, I don't believe she had the right to refuse you any documentation regarding your own employment history there. If any of it contained confidential information regarding clientele or business operations AND it isn't part of one of your evaluations, then I think they can refuse to allow you to take that, especially if you are no longer employed there. If I were you, I would march myself up to the human resources office first thing Monday morning and demand copies of your personnel file documentation. If they refuse to give it to you, ask for documentation of the law that applies before you leave the office. You don' t want to give them a chance to alter anything if you can avoid it. If they won't accommodate the request and say you have to leave, then I would get hold of an attorney for advice right away. Most will give you some sort of direction over the phone for free, as long as you are considering hiring them. In my case, I was able to get advice even when they couldn't work with me, due to the presence of my union. Oh, I almost forgot, if you belong to a union, call the hot line right away or first thing when the union is available! You might also want to take note for yourself of what other, non-personal documents you wish you had taken copies of and why you wish you had. Technically, they can't remove or alter documents, so if the entire place isn't corrupt, any info like that that you need may still be there. I'm sorry to hear how things came down for you. I wish there were more I could do to help. I hope you find these ideas helpful. Keep us updated, please! CL I have recently been fired after repeated bullying behaviors from my previous employer. I kept records of many incident reports and performance evaluation comments in my desk. The day I was terminated, Message: 22 You go CL Hi, First of all, I recommend you seek an attorney ASAP. You need legal advice right away, before the thought of destroying documents becomes reality. It seems bullying employers are generally cocky enough to break the law in their quest to destroy. That being said, I don't believe she had the right to refuse you any documentation regarding your own employment history there. If any of it contained confidential information regarding clientele or business operations AND it isn't part of one of your evaluations, then I think they can refuse to allow you to take that, especially if you are no longer employed there. If I were you, I would march myself up to the human resources office first thing Monday morning and demand copies of your personnel file documentation. If they refuse to give it to you, ask for documentation of the law that applies before you leave the office. You don' t want to give them a chance to alter anything if you can avoid it. If they won't accommodate the request and say you have to leave, then I would get hold of an attorney for advice right away. Most will give you some sort of direction over the phone for free, as long as you are considering hiring them. In my case, I was able to get advice even when they couldn't work with me, due to the presence of my union. Oh, I almost forgot, if you belong to a union, call the hot line right away or first thing when the union is available! You might also want to take note for yourself of what other, non-personal documents you wish you had taken copies of and why you wish you had. Technically, they can't remove or alter documents, so if the entire place isn't corrupt, any info like that that you need may still be there. I'm sorry to hear how things came down for you. I wish there were more I could do to help. I hope you find these ideas helpful. Keep us updated, please! CL I have recently been fired after repeated bullying behaviors from my previous employer. I kept records of many incident reports and performance evaluation comments in my desk. The day I was terminated, Message: 23 Yes, He does, Sue!!! I'm sorry to hear that your potential employer is corrupted, but better now than after you are hired. Whew! Close call . . . CL Bob; Terry; Broderick, Gourete; Froggy, Feisty I have to share something with you that will flip you out entirely....I spoke to someone who warned me about the very agency I interviewed with..informed

Message: 24 LOL! :)

You go CL Hi,

First of all, I recommend you seek an attorney ASAP. You need legal advice right away, before the thought of destroying documents becomes reality. It

Message: 25 YES, CL, THERE IS A GOD!!! Sue C L wrote: Yes, He does, Sue!!! I'm sorry to hear that your potential employer is corrupted, but better now than after you are hired. Whew! Close call . . . CL Bob; Terry; Broderick, Gourete; Froggy, Feisty I have to share something with you that will flip you out entirely....I spoke to someone who warned me about the very agency I interviewed with..informed me that there's a consistent turnover there....I told the one girl about Message: 1 Sue,

CL wrote: I'm sorry to hear that your potential employer is corrupted, but better now than after you are hired. Whew! Close call . . .

Seconded. Jennifer Message: 2 Sue, THERE IS A GOD!!! There sure is and He cares. Jennifer Message: 3 ----Original Message Follows---- :)

<< A M E R R Y H E A R T ============================= TERRORISTS SPOTTED IN GOVERNMENT OFFICE. ------------------------------------ Latest news reports advise that a cell of five terrorists have been operating undercover for sometime at local government offices. Police advised earlier today that four of the five have been detained. Security stated that the terrorists Bin Sleepin, Bin Drinkin, Bin Fightin, and Bin There-Done-That have been arrested on immigration issues. The police advise further that they can find no one fitting the description of the fifth cell member, Bin Workin, in the area. Police are confident however, that anyone who looks like Bin Workin will be very easy to spot in the office (Dis-Associated Press). Message: 4 asked: I have recently been fired after repeated bullying behaviors from my previous employer. I kept records of many incident reports and performance evaluation comments in my desk. The day I was terminated, the HR person told me to unpack my desk while she watched. She would not allow me to take anything related to the company like my documented email exchanges, incident report documentation and other evidence of bullying. Can they take this evidence away? The employer can do anything they like, but whether it is legal in your state is another matter. The fact that the HR person feels a need to prevent you taking evidence is itself contributory evidence. In the UK it might be possible to immediately obtain a court injunction preventing the employer from destroying the evidence so that it can be obtained under the rules of disclosure prior to employment tribunal. Tim Field Message: 1 NOTE TO EVERYONE: keep your documentation at home...of course, your employer and their bully employees will stop at nothing to stonewall you; and basically these types of people are small-minded and dumb. they are not thinking of the legal repercussions at the time. the stuff i turned over to the city's investigative attorney was six years old, some on steno note paper, ripped out and saved; scribbled notes on copy paper (you can tell i was upset at the time) and eventually printed computer versions when i got my pc. it was a powerful statement, and a good indication that i was not lying. (why would i go to all this trouble, when i had a job to do as well.) the investigative attorney made a comment about how he was amazed that i put up with the crap all day and then went home and wrote about it. i told him i found in "therapeudic", and that writing was my hobby. he actually shook his head and smiled. julie from nj Message: 2 --- In ., . wrote: I have recently been fired after repeated bullying behaviors from my previous employer. I kept records of many incident reports and performance evaluation comments in my desk. The day I was terminated, the HR person told me to unpack my desk while she watched. She would not allow me to take anything related to the company like my documented email exchanges, incident report documentation and other evidence of bullying. Can they take this evidence away? After i was fired without warning, i contacted an attorney immediately. he told me to fax a letter to HR requesting under state law that they send me a copy of my personnel file (he said my request had to be in within 4 days of my termination for them to be legally required to send it, and that they had 10 days to do that) this was before they knew i was suing them so it increased the chance they wouldn't doctor my file. I also asked them to put in writing the reason (s) they forced my to resign. They never did that part. hope this is helpful queste Message: 3 Julie, I'm glad I'm not alone. Some of mine are even on Post-its! When I get mine transcribed onto Word, should I save the originals? CL NOTE TO EVERYONE: keep your documentation at home...of course, your employer and their bully employees will stop at nothing to stonewall you; and basically these types of people are small-minded and dumb. they are not Message: 4 --- wrote: I have recently been fired after repeated bullying behaviors from my previous employer.

I'm sorry. I kept records of many incident reports and performance evaluation comments in my desk. Do you have any back up copies anywhere? The day I was terminated, the HR person told me to unpack my desk while she watched. She would not allow me to take anything related to the company like my documented email exchanges, incident report documentation and other evidence of bullying. Can they take this evidence away? I'm not clear which country you are in. In the US, the employer does have the right to search all company owned items...even those that are a bit more personal such as a locker or a desk. They can not search your personal items such as a purse or a briefcase. It is wise practice never to leave such documentation at work. If you receive performance evaluations, write ups, etc...always put them immediately in your briefcase or purse and then take them home and leave them at home in a secured location. If there are computer files applicable to your case, put them on a disc and then put the disc in your breifcase or purse. In some cases I've advised targets to keep copies of documentation in a bank safety deposit box. I know of at least two situations where the bullies harassed targets on their home turf and in one of those cases, it was suspected that the target's home had been searched. Also, if you take any medications at work, never leave these accessible. They should remain in your purse or briefcase. I worked with a target whose desk was searched and prescription medication was seized (this is illegal, but it was done anyway)

leaving the target without medication and the bully with access to private medical information. Also, never use the company email system to discuss your case under any circumstances. Also, Nineveh should not be contacted this way. This is not paranoia, but experience. These company systems are monitored. Always use an indedpendant email server to contact Nineveh or whenever discussing anything about your case-even to the union or other official agencies. I believe that you can still request your personnel file and be sure to ask if there is a separate medical/insurance file as well. There is a very small window of time to do this, so it must be done quickly. I also suggest that you consult an attorney as to the legality of them taking your performance evaluations away from you. Something doesn't seem right there. You are supposed to be given (and permitted to keep) copies of these sorts of things. Let us know what happens. Jennifer

Message: 5 CL-i did misunderstand you. i thought that management offered to take that document out of your file, if you would drop everything-hence the term, "bribe". i did not realize that they were stonewalling the removal; that really makes no sense to me. i guess i was giving them too much credit. that would have been the smart thing to do. but while management is not always smart-most always, they are arrogant. true, you are now the pariah. once you approach your union, you are "the enemy" to management. think about why unions were formed in the first place. managements' plan is to "divide and conquer". unions' is "safety in numbers". of course, you then get all the jockeying in between, and you never know who to trust because some union reps are trying to resolve issues in the easiest (way (they are lazy and uncommitted) or the cheapest (they can save their money for the tough ones) management makes it as difficult as possbile by saying, no, no, no. (arrogance and ego) to whatever it is that union wants and it goes on and on...verbal jousting... get used to the pariah treatment as part of the game; any label in my mind, is better than "victim". my latest reaction to your situation is this: you are already in deep with the union grievance-management will never again look at you in the same way (the "f----ing" ingrate thing) they really can' t, or do not want to be made to understand workplace bullying. being creeps themselves, they feel it is just part of the terrain. i do think that if they placed that document in your file after your union grievance, you could possibly have "whistle-blower" protection. although the laws are weak in the bullying area, you complained because you felt you were being abused, that you were a victim of a hostile work environment. ( i would love to see "human beings" one day fall under a "protected class"! in harrassement law)

my gut feeling is that you should stick with your union. management is not even willing to make an easy and smart compromise and TAKE THAT THING OUT OF YOUR FILE! perhaps they think that removal would be proof that they set you up in the first place, since it was retroactive and suddenly appeared after your complaint. it sounds like they plan to take you to the wall. but, that is just me. i am always overly suspicious with those that have proven themselves to be suspect in the first place. my stupidvisor actually made a comment to me shortly after my complaint that something like "needs to work better with finance" (my bully ) might someday be part of my evaluation. i said, "what???after i've accused him of harrassment???? i documented five years worth of trying to work with that guy!! my stupidvisor then said, "oh, no, no, no-i take that back". and i thought, "you'd better," and then fired off a letter to his boss. so i dodged the bullet on that one (so far) my feeling is that "a letter in your file", or an "evaluation" is a common ploy by mangement. look, it happened to you, and they were going to try it on me. that's just two of us. i think that if you want that letter out of your file, it is the least that they can do. stand firm, and let your union fight for you. it is an easy compromise...take the stance that is up to union v. managment now, and you are the outside looking in. you reported an unsafe work condition. union responded. oh, one last thought, since it is all you are asking for-do you know for sure (in writing?) that managment refused to take the document out? were you ever involved in any of the negotiations? (i.e. actually in the room?) i am curious, let me know ....but, in the end, no matter how it all plays out, it should be your decision only. in my case, i have a strong suspicion that management has had it with my bully too. i (with the help of a few others) have now made him the liability that he is. good luck! write back! regards,

julie from nj Message: 6 Its great to be able to interact with individuals who have experienced the same bullying and harrassment in the workplace. I am in the process of filing a gender discrimination charge against my previous employer with the EEOC. I did not realize that discrimination must go through the EEOC before you can file a lawsuit. I wanted to file wrongful discharge and malicious harrassment but was told by an employment law attorney that in an "at will" state, I am basically out of luck. Without protection of a union, I can be fired for any reason or no reason. And my direct supervisor was also one of the owners, so there was no one to report this to, at least no one who had authority over his. I am hoping that the EEOC will back me up on this. I work at a technical proprietary school and was told I had a complaint lodged against me. I asked to see the complaint and my personnel file and was denied on both counts. My attorney requested copies of my personnel file and they refused without a supoena. I cannot get Cobra benefits because he says I was terminated for gross misconduct (which I am still trying to figure out what it was). I was compiling evidence for a discrimination inquiry. My attorney had emailed me at work at 9:30 with advice of what information he needed, at noon I was let go. And yes, our email is monitored. Unfortunately, the gender discrimination was not as severe as the malicious manipulation of my job and emotions. I was criticized for taking lunches which I eventually ceased to do, subject to abusive tirades, and had sales that I had worked for taken away and given to other representatives because, as he put it, "I'm the owner and I can do whatever I want." One individual I worked with, who was also a very close friend of my boss, was always given preference over me. There is much nepotism and personal alliances in this company and an outsider will never get ahead. If you don't know someone, sleep with someone or are related to someone, your time is limited. At the time of my discharge I was number two in the company for sales in a field of 32 reps. And I did that in spite of my boss. My numbers could have been even higher. Any advice in filing with the EEOC will be much appreciated. I am very nervous about all of this. Debbie

Message: 7

Hi Julie, My understanding is that our upper management has made it a practice to punish those who go to the union and they continue doing so because people give up. They've never had to face consequences or prove that they were in the right to do so. When I returned to work, they treated me like a piece of dirt-- until they received the formal papers from Civil Rights. Now (4 mos after my return to the office) they have been scrambling and getting me away from Creepy's supervision in a big hurry. I was TOLD (key word here, since I have been privy to no actual interactions on this) that the labor relations person in the big office was considering a resolution of my initial grievance/harassment complaint that would include removing the paper 90 days from issuance (which would have been end of last month). Since it would get it out for now and Civil Rights was still involved, I would have signed it. Then, last week, the rep called and said our personnel office refused to agree to that. The rep was very unsupportive (again) of my stance that I can't call it resolved then, since they never acted in a timely manner at all to my complaint and they treated me poorly and aren't even willing to repair the damage done on paper.

I think the rep is lazy and avoiding as much work as possible. It will take accessing files to prove the retaliation, but it is very possible. The rep "works" at least half his hours out of his home. He failed to make it to three scheduled meetings in September with the steward and me to discuss this, never did meet with us and then went for the removal of the paper after saying he didn't want to do that. I think it was easier than traveling to our office, LOL! I'm really irritated with him. They posted our admin's salaries in the union paper recently. Since we pay our rep's salaries directly, I'd like to know what THEY get paid (and for what?).

And, I don't know who is saying what. I only know what the union tells me. I have been wondering about that more and more lately. The steward demanded an apology from Creepy at the second step meeting with personnel, telling me afterward that he wanted it moved to third step and that was the only way to get the incident documented in a meaningful way. That seemed okay in that it prompted personnel to promise to talk with some witnesses to minor incidents before and after the big incident and to my demeanor immediately following the incident when I was wigging out and talking to friends. I heard nothing for over week, so I called the steward. He TOLD me that personnel fired off a letter two days later, saying Creepy was just doing his job and offering no move to a new supervisor (as had been offered at the second step meeting before the steward demanded the apology). (I confirmed for myself that personnel never did talk with the witnesses, so I know personnel isn't being honest either.) He said he knew I couldn't return to Creepy's supervision, so he sent it in for a third step without consulting me and he MEANT to call me and tell me what happened but he forgot. I have no real idea how much of that is true, if any. I don't even really know that it needed to go to third step. This same steward merged my retaliation grievance with a couple of others, creating the class action grievance, without asking me first. I hate to say it, but I don't want to have it lumped in with the others. I don't mind if they use my circumstances as evidence of a pattern on administration's part, but the others were initially grieving discipline when the admin. retaliated. One is the steward, who probably really did argue a situation a bit too much (from what I know of his personality) and the other is a woman who needed to hit bottom to face her addiction issues. I DO agree that admin. went too far and retaliated against the steward, but I don't even know the exact circumstances of the woman's case. I suppose it doesn't matter, though, because (IF the union is being honest) admin. is probably going to refuse to remove the paper to resolve the retaliation grievance as well. It just makes me uncomfortable when the steward does things with my case without consulting me. I guess that is part of why I had hopes of meeting with a reasonable person in our admin. who would be willing and able to discuss things openly and honestly with me. I'd like to know exactly what admin. is saying on their side of things and I wish someone would pull the documentation necessary to see that what I say is true. It's really sad that I had to go outside our office to get this settled. You're right. I need to stick it out with the union, but it's frustrating. I think the rep wants me to save him some work and dump the union. He keeps saying that Civil Rights will take care of it. Well, CR are supportive right now, but I don't KNOW what they are going to actually accomplish until it happens. I think maybe the union is trying to stall going to arbitration until CR has already done the union's job for them. I avoided having to get into the "sexual" aspect of my case at the start (before I knew how insanely arrogant our admin. is) because it's embarrassing and Creepy's behavior in that incident falls under the general harassment component of our union contract and under our own agency's Zero Tolerance policy. I'm fortunate that the component is there, though, because I was able to go to Civil Rights for justice when I had to. I think it's a sorry state of affairs that only some forms of harassment can get outside support though. Every worker under any harassment circumstance should be able to get justice. Because my case has gone outside the agency to Civil Rights and because retaliation and discrimination are such common practices at our agency, I am getting a lot of pressure from coworkers to go forth no matter what. Admin. really screwed up not acknowledging the difference between my harassment grievance and the discipline grievances they usually deal with. It bothers me deeply that we can't expect our admin. to protect us from even that sort of harassment. It feels like they are carrying out the quid pro quo business on behalf of the supervisor involved! I will let the chips fall where they may in regards to Civil Rights, but I think Civil Rights will probably want to call it resolved if admin. will pull the paper from my file. They have a lot of cases and I wasn't physically assaulted, so I know it isn't the most pressing situation that faces them. I think I have made my point that admin. can't expect that an employee is going to lay down and take it when they retaliate.

I was hoping when I went to the director that I could be a bit of a hero in Admin's eyes by helping them avoid a lawsuit and public knowledge of what happened. I was hoping someone up there would want to be a hero to staff and correct the matter, but I guess there was no dice there. Maybe it was worth a shot after all. Who knows? What's done is done anyhow. When I get to asking myself why they are being so stupid about things, I sometimes wonder if someone in admin. is hoping also to bring the discrimination and such to light. I don't know who that would be or why, though. Right now, they are all looking a bit crooked. I wish I wasn't being kept so much in the dark about things. I feel like I am being treated like a "silly woman" who wouldn't understand anyhow. To answer your questions, no, I was never given anything in writing regarding admin's refusal to remove the paper and I have not been present for any of the negotiations. I would like to be, because I think I could straighten a lot of this out. One interesting thing, though, is that I heard of admin's outright refusal from one person outside the union. Our admin was all white men until a woman was promoted last spring. I found her supportive of my position when she first found herself involved (due to the absence of her peer who is directly over us). She took my position on the paper to upper admin for me and told me afterward that they said they would remove it "under no circumstances". She has been a LOT less supportive recently. Friday, she actually said I should drop my cases because I have to "think about [my] future"!!! Now, I know she is in a risky position because she is new and they MAY be looking to get rid of her, so they can say they HAVE hired non-white-men in higher positions but "it didn't work out". She's a very astute woman and it shocked me to hear her say something so outrageous. It occurred to me last night that maybe she said it as much or more out of intent to make me angry at admin again and fire me up as to stop me from going forward. If I go forward AND she is "doing her job" and siding with admin, she is in a lot less danger than if she sticks her neck out (like she SAID she did earlier). I don't really know WHAT they said to her IF she even approached them on my behalf before. It just gets murkier and murkier . . . Along with you and me, there are others on the forum who have questioned their own union's ethics. I'm glad you found support higher up in your union. Now you know why I follow your story with such interest! :) Thank you for your support, input and insight into my situation! CL CL-i did misunderstand you. i thought that management offered to take that document out of your file, if you would drop everything-hence the term, "bribe". i did not realize that they were stonewalling the removal; that really makes no sense to me. i guess i was giving them too much credit. that would have been the smart thing to do. but while management is not always smart-most always, they are arrogant. true, you are now the pariah. once you approach your union, you are "the enemy" to management. think about why unions were formed in the first place. managements' plan is to "divide and conquer". unions' Message: 8 Hi Debbie! Lots of good info and support here. Message: 9

Hi Debbie! Welcome to the forum! I am in a very similar boat to yours, except the presence of a union in my case has held admin. at bay in terms of how much retaliation they can expect to get away with. I also have a gender based harassment case pending with EEOC and Civil Rights. Because of the laws in our state, Civil Rights is the agency handling it. I wonder about torte law in your state though. I was thinking if I had been fired in retaliation, I could have gone for tortes such as "wrongful imprisonment" (you gotta read about it to understand how that fits!). If EEOC doesn't accept your case, you might want to get a second or third opinion from other atty's about torte laws and how they may apply.

I understand your nervousness about EEOC. It's a HUGE agency and the whole thought of having to testify in court about the yucky circumstances is just embarrassing. I tried to avoid it, but turning to them was the only thing that has accomplished ANY appropriate (if delinquent) action on the part of my employer. I had expected a new supervisor when I returned to work form medical leave; but it was another four months later, when the paperwork from Civil Rights arrived in our office, that they actually took me out from under my old supervisor. In my case, also, the actual act which prompted the harassment complaint isn't what did the most damage. It was my employer's attitude toward me and the incident which really caused deep, lasting emotional harm. I no longer feel even physically safe at my own office. In regards to EEOC, I can share what has happened so far with Civil Rights. I called in May and went through an extensive phone interview. My case was accepted at the first level, which they call a "contact". I was told the woman in charge of my case was going to contact my employer and try to work something out on my behalf. I returned to work in June. My employer had not moved me as promised and they threatened discipline as soon as I walked in the door. I called Civil Rights and learned that they had not called my employer yet. She then did so. No resolution was attained in that phone call. I was written up in late July (for non-issues from last winter!) and a negative paper was placed in my file (the first in six years of dedicated employment there). When I called them about hat, Civil Rights wrote up the Formal Complaint, including the retaliation taken, and had me sign and notarize it. Once I had signed it, I was given a case number at both the Dept. of Civil Rights and the EEOC. The Formal Complaint paperwork was forwarded to my personnel office. If personnel didn't respond within 28 days (we just crossed that deadline and I don't know yet if they responded), my case goes forth into a full investigation of the facts involved. According to what I read, I think they may be scheduling a court date as well. If personnel did respond on time, Civil Rights will attempt to see if they can work out an equitable resolution with my employer. In my case, since they did finally move me away from Creepy old boss' supervision, this would mean removing the negative paper form my file. If I no longer worked there, I suppose the resolution would involve some sort of monetary reparations or reinstatement of employment or both. I hope this helps. I'm not sure if the process is exactly the same if one goes directly through EEOC, but it is probably similar. With both agencies, I read that a "gag clause" prohibiting you from discussing the facts with just anybody will be part of the resolution. Be prepared for things to take longer than expected to move along due to high caseloads. My personnel office has habitually not responded adequately to the union and to Civil Rights. Civil Rights, though, has staunchly moved forward to each step as soon as able. They are clearly in charge of things and not willing to allow my employer to push them around or play games. For that, I am very grateful. CL

Its great to be able to interact with individuals who have experienced the same bullying and harrassment in the workplace. I am in the process of filing a gender discrimination charge against my previous employer with the EEOC. I did not realize that discrimination must go through the EEOC before you can file a lawsuit. I wanted to file wrongful discharge and malicious harrassment but was told by an employment law attorney that in an "at will" state, I am basically out of luck. Without protection of a union, I can be fired for any reason or no reason. And my direct supervisor was also one of the owners, so there was no one to report this to, at least no one who had authority over his. I am hoping that the EEOC will back me up on this. I work at a technical proprietary school and was told I had a complaint lodged against me. I asked to see the complaint and my personnel file and was denied on both counts. My attorney requested copies of my personnel file and they refused without a supoena. I cannot get Cobra benefits because he says I was terminated for gross misconduct (which I am still trying to figure out what it was). I was compiling evidence for a discrimination inquiry. My attorney had emailed me at work at 9:30 with advice of what information he needed, at noon I was let go. And yes, our email is monitored. Unfortunately, the gender discrimination was not as severe as the malicious manipulation of my job and emotions. I was criticized for taking lunches which I eventually ceased to do, subject to abusive tirades, and had sales that I had worked for taken away and given to other representatives because, as he put it, "I'm the owner and I can do whatever I want." One individual I worked with, who was also a very close friend of my boss, was always given preference over me. There is much nepotism and personal alliances in this company and an outsider will never get ahead. If you don 't know someone, sleep with someone or are related to someone, your time is limited. At the time of my discharge I was number two in the company for sales in a field of 32 reps. And I did that in spite of my boss. My numbers could have been even higher. Any advice in filing with the EEOC will be much appreciated. I am very nervous about all of this. Debbie Message: 10 Hello Tim,

Thanks so much for your reply. Unfortunately, I chose not to sue, but if I ever have this type of situation come up again, I want to know the right thing to do. They were definitely attempting to cover-up any possibility of me taking further action against their bullying behaviors. Sincerely, Christi Sanderson

Tim Field wrote: asked: I have recently been fired after repeated bullying behaviors from my previous employer. I kept records of many incident reports and performance evaluation comments in my desk. The day I was terminated, the HR person told me to unpack my desk while she watched. She would not allow me to take anything related to the company like my documented email exchanges, incident report documentation and other evidence of bullying. Can they take this evidence away? The employer can do anything they like, but whether it is legal in your state is another matter. The fact that the HR person feels a need to prevent you taking evidence is itself contributory evidence. In the UK it might be possible to immediately obtain a court injunction preventing the employer from destroying the evidence so that it can be obtained under the rules of disclosure prior to employment tribunal. Tim Field Message: 11

Jennifer, Thanks so much for your informative reply. Unfortunately, I did not keep copies of the email exchanges at home. I had both hard copies and saved files on my computer at work. I had no idea they would ever take these from me. I will ask an attorney if this is legal. I love this forum.....we are all going to become experts on the law and the bullies better watch out!!!!!!! I am so disheartened by people trying to destroy other people, especially after the terrorist bombing. I don't want to get too depressed, but this year has been pretty hard. This is the way I like to use my energy. If we can all help each other, we will win. Thanks so much, Christi

Feisty Froggy wrote: --- wrote: I have recently been fired after repeated bullying behaviors from my previous employer.

I'm sorry. I kept records of many incident reports and performance evaluation comments in my desk.

Do you have any back up copies anywhere? The day I was terminated, the HR person told me to unpack my desk while she watched. She would not allow me to take anything related to the company like my documented email exchanges, incident report documentation and other evidence of bullying. Can they take this evidence away? I'm not clear which country you are in. In the US, the employer does have the right to search all company owned items...even those that are a bit more personal such as a locker or a desk. They can not search your personal items such as a purse or a briefcase. It is wise practice never to leave such documentation at work. If you receive performance evaluations, write ups, etc...always put them immediately in your briefcase or purse and then take them home and leave them at home in a secured location. If there are computer files applicable to your case, put them on a disc and then put the disc in your breifcase or purse. In some cases I've advised targets to keep copies of documentation in a bank safety deposit box. I know of at least two situations where the bullies harassed targets on their home turf and in one of those cases, it was suspected that the target's home had been searched. Also, if you take any medications at work, never leave these accessible. They should remain in your purse or briefcase. I worked with a target whose desk was searched and prescription medication was seized (this is illegal, but it was done anyway) leaving the target without medication and the bully with access to private medical information. Also, never use the company email system to discuss your case under any circumstances. Also, Nineveh should not be contacted this way. This is not paranoia, but experience. These company systems are monitored. Always use an indedpendant email server to contact Nineveh or whenever discussing anything about your case-even to the union or other official agencies. I believe that you can still request your personnel file and be sure to ask if there is a separate medical/insurance file as well. There is a very small window of time to do this, so it must be done quickly. I also suggest that you consult an attorney as to the legality of them taking your performance evaluations away from you. Something doesn't seem right there. You are supposed to be given (and permitted to keep) copies of these sorts of things. Let us know what happens. Jennifer Message: 12 Debbie, I don't have experience with filing with the EEOC, but your stated case sounds like a good one. The only advice that I have gained by talking to people is that it must be proven as a gender discrimination to hold up in court. I am not sure how far the courts are going with bullying against targeted individuals. The way I look at things now, even if all we can do is file complaints, if there are enough of them describing these situations where we are not protected by law, the laws will change. Things change when addressed in mass. Hooray!! I will be praying for you... Christi

wrote: Its great to be able to interact with individuals who have experienced the same bullying and harrassment in the workplace. I am in the process of filing a gender discrimination charge against my previous employer with the EEOC. I did not realize that discrimination must go through the EEOC before you can file a lawsuit. I wanted to file wrongful discharge and malicious harrassment but was told by an employment law attorney that in an "at will" state, I am basically out of luck. Without protection of a union, I can be fired for any reason or no reason. And my direct supervisor was also one of the owners, so there was no one to report this to, at least no one who had authority over his. I am hoping that the EEOC will back me up on this. I work at a technical proprietary school and was told I had a complaint lodged against me. I asked to see the complaint and my personnel file and was denied on both counts. My attorney requested copies of my personnel file and they refused without a supoena. I cannot get Cobra benefits because he says I was terminated for gross misconduct (which I am still trying to figure out what it was). Message: 13 I don't generally believe in horoscopes, but they do help me feel more secure when I am down for some reason. So, I looked today and saw this calendar of the stars for the next week. For those of you following the events of my case, the timing is very interesting, so I thought I would share it. It would sure be something if it panned out! :)

The dates listed for the bold headings are, in order, 11/11, 11/13, 11/14, 11/15, 11/16. 11/13 is the next day our office is open and the day I was intending to make sure the director got my message. The listed ego attack is pretty likely, given what I was told by one member of admin.-that our 2nd level supervisor may be miffed that I didn't go to him first. If he is insulted by that or if the director was NOT given the message that I asked to meet with him, action (authority budging) is certainly possible on the 14th. If this happens and I am feeling better about things at work by the 15th, I will be doing as I have been intending and beginning a planned project at home. If things are resolved in a sudden hurry, it's possible (though not likely, especially that quickly) I will get some answers regarding what really happened at key points in my case by the 16th. Weird, huh? 11Moon in Libra â?" Pleasant strolls favored 13 Sun & Uranus â?" Your ego under attack 14Mars & Saturn â?" Authority will budge today 15New Moon in Scorpio â?" Start new projects 16Moon & Pluto â?" Can you keep a secret?Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com Message: 14 The chart didn't show exactly the way it did when I copied it on my computer, but I think it's pretty clear. That darn advertisement at the end was not attached to the horoscope calendar! It's a very annoying thing from my server that attaches itself (with no break from the last line of text) at the end of quoted messages. That's why I am signed as "CLGet more from the web, . . ." so often! ;)

CL

I don't generally believe in horoscopes, but they do help me feel more secure when I am down for some reason. So, I looked today and saw this calendar of the stars for the next week. For those of you following the events of my case, the timing is very interesting, so I thought I would share it. It would sure be something if it panned out! :)

Message: 15 Thanks. I did not choose to sue this time, but if I am ever treated that way again, I am using this as a learning experience to stop the bullies next time. I think just letting these people know that you know the system too may be enough to stop the bullying. Christi wrote: --- In ., . wrote: I have recently been fired after repeated bullying behaviors from my previous employer. I kept records of many incident reports and performance evaluation comments in my desk. The day I was terminated, the HR person told me to unpack my desk while she watched. She would not allow me to take anything related to the company like my documented email exchanges, incident report documentation and other evidence of bullying. Can they take this evidence away? After i was fired without warning, i contacted an attorney immediately. he told me to fax a letter to HR requesting under state law that they send me a copy of my personnel file (he said my request had to be in within 4 days of my termination for them to be legally required to send it, and that they had 10 days to do that) this was before they knew i was suing them so it increased the chance they wouldn't doctor my file. I also asked them to put in writing the reason (s) they forced my to resign. They never did that part. hope this is helpful queste Message: 16

To everyone: If the employer that fires you has a "no comment" policy, what does this really mean? Is this really a way for all employers to use code words to tip each other off about the employee? Does "no comment" mean the employer can say nothing bad about an employee that was fired, but can praise a "good" employee? In other words, if the "no comment" policy is supposed to protect them legally, isn't the fact that it is "no comment" mean they are saying something negative? Christi (check out this article) http://hr.monster.com/articles/wonttalk/ Message: 17 Take a pleasant stroll and forget it.. ;)

The chart didn't show exactly the way it did when I copied it on my computer, but I think it's pretty clear. That darn advertisement at the end was not attached to the horoscope calendar! It's a very annoying thing from my server that attaches itself (with no break from the last line of text) at the end of quoted messages. That's why I am signed as "CLGet more from the web, . . ." so often! ;) CL

I don't generally believe in horoscopes, but they do help me feel more secure when I am down for some reason. So, I looked today and saw this calendar of the stars for the next week. For those of you following the events of my case, the timing is very interesting, so I thought I would share it. It would sure be something if it panned out! :)

The dates listed for the bold headings are, in order, 11/11, 11/13, 11/14, 11/15, 11/16. 11/13 is the next day our office is open and the day I was intending to make sure the director got my message. The listed ego attack is pretty likely, given what I was told by one member of admin.-- that our 2nd level supervisor may be miffed that I didn't go to him first. If he is insulted by that or if the director was NOT given the message that I asked to meet with him, action (authority budging) is certainly possible on the 14th. If this happens and I am feeling better about things at work by the 15th, I will be doing as I have been intending and beginning a planned project at home. If things are resolved in a sudden hurry, it's possible (though not likely, especially that quickly) I will get some answers regarding what really happened at key points in my case by the 16th. Weird, huh? Message: 18

ROFLOL, Bob! You made me laugh today! Thank you! I needed that. :)

CL

Take a pleasant stroll and forget it.. ;)

The chart didn't show exactly the way it did when I copied it on my computer, but I think it's pretty clear. That darn advertisement at the end was not attached to the horoscope calendar! It's a very annoying thing from my server that attaches itself (with no break from the last line of text) at the end of quoted messages. That's why I am signed as "CLGet more from the web, . . ." so often! ;)

CL

I don't generally believe in horoscopes, but they do help me feel more secure when I am down for some reason. So, I looked today and saw this calendar of the stars for the next week. For those of you following the events of my case, the timing is very interesting, so I thought I would share it. It would sure be something if it panned out! :)

The dates listed for the bold headings are, in order, 11/11, 11/13, 11/14, 11/15, 11/16. 11/13 is the next day our office is open and the day I was intending to make sure the director got my message. The listed ego attack is pretty likely, given what I was told by one member of admin.-that our 2nd level supervisor may be miffed that I didn't go to him first. If he is insulted by that or if the director was NOT given the message that I asked to meet with him, action (authority budging) is certainly possible on the 14th. If this happens and I am feeling better about things at work by the 15th, I will be doing as I have been intending and beginning a planned project at home. If things are resolved in a sudden hurry, it's possible (though not likely, especially that quickly) I will get some answers regarding what really happened at key points in my case by the 16th. Weird, huh? 11Moon in Libra â?" Pleasant strolls favored Message: 19 Are there places that we can file complaints about businesses just like Consumers can file complaints with the Department of Consumer Services and the Better Business Bureau? This would be a good place to start getting our voices heard. That way, if many employees put in complaints, their business can be hurt because no one will want to work for them! Christi Message: 20 Dear Debbie: Welcome to the online forum. Regarding psychological/emotional harassment in the workplace, known as "bullying," this type of mistreatment is "status-blind," which means it does not come under any of the current protected classes, such as gender, age, race, sexual harassment, or disability. If you are over 40 years of age, or over, you may file an age discrimination complaint with EEOC. Of course you would know if it were a gender bias case as well. It may be both. I heavily recommend that you have a log of the sequence of events that have led up to your unfair dismissal from work. Although I am not a lawyer, I am a psychotherapist and my practice is flooded with clients who have been bullied at work, I must be aware of the current laws in order to direct them to the right legal pew. What I do know is that there is a case precedent that was turned down for discrimination, yet upheld for "bulllying" November, 2000 in Boston. It would be helpful to speak with your attorney, and the EEOC agent, and focus your argument that there was an intentional and deliberate campaign to force you out of your job. Your log ought to contain all of the underhanded tactics, innuendoes, etc. that were perpetrated on you. Also if you are suffering from severe distress, and/or physical difficulties causally related to the hostile and abusive work environment, put those in your notes. I hope this is of some help. Regards, Susan Shaub Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations Message: 21 Christi, others may know of one, but I never heard of such, except through a union or the court system. My employer, for instance, is known at the union and with court involved types as a bullying employer, but prospective employees are ignorant of their reputation. I wonder, though, about filing something at the Better Business Bureau or getting a publication to start listing this type of thing? If they are risking costly lawsuits by bullying employees, I'm sure customers and shareholders would be interested! CL Are there places that we can file complaints about businesses just like Consumers can file complaints with the Department of Consumer Services and the Better Business Bureau? This would be a good place to start getting our voices heard. That way, if many employees put in complaints, their business can be hurt because no one will want to work for them! Christi Message: 22 Hey Christi: I think this is a great idea, although it could almost result in slander. I was part of a group of Temporary Help agencies who met to discuss certain businesses who would not pay, as well as temp employees who went from one agency to another to file unemployment. Unfortunately, a participant in the group mentioned to the owner of a certain business who was notorious for not paying their bills, that they were being marked as a bad account. The business owner threatened to sue, the group disbanded... it was a real mess. When I consulted an employment law attorney about my situation she laughed and said half her phone calls were from ex employees of the same company I worked for. I cannot believe we don't have some type of legislation to protect people beyond the Civil Rights act. Harrassment and bullying are just as damaging and there is simply no protection. I would like to form a support group in my local city to discuss these issues and perhaps develop some type of public awareness for HR departments to issue to employees. I know this exists in other states and cities, but to my knowledge no one is doing it here. And this is the heartland where bullying and low grade terrorism is accepted as a way of life. I refuse! Love you guys! Thanks for the great responses! Debbie Message: 23 Susan: Thank you so much for your input! As a matter of fact I am on sleeping pills and a daily tranquilizer right now as a result of all of this. I am very interested in the bullying because I have a great deal of documentation to cover that area. I was told by an EEOC representative that unless I can prove it is gender or sex discrimination or any of the other areas covered by Civil Rights law, they are unable to accept the case. I am over 40, but I really don't think I have a case in that area. I hope the EEOC will find probable gender discrimination and release me to take it to court. Thats when I can bring in the bullying and malicious harrassment. I think I have searched every webpage on the net for information and it is amazing to me how often this happens and how helpless we are to prevent it. Once again, thank you so much for your response. Debbie Message: 24 I hadn't thought about slander. I wonder if they could really sue for slander if Fortune magazine, for instance, simply kept track of anonymous tips that there had been a near lawsuit due to risky employment practices at this or that company? They publish a yearly list of best companies to work for, don't they? Or is that Parent magazine??? Hmmm . . . Anyway, I wonder if there would be a way to get the news out while avoiding slander suits? It seems like it would be a public service to do so. CL Hey Christi: I think this is a great idea, although it could almost result in slander. I was part of a group of Temporary Help agencies who met to discuss certain businesses who would not pay, as well as temp employees who went from one agency to another to file unemployment. Unfortunately, a participant in the group mentioned to the owner of a certain business who was notorious for not paying their bills, that they were being marked as a bad account. The business owner threatened to sue, the group disbanded... it was a real mess. When I consulted an employment law attorney about my situation she laughed and said half her phone calls were from ex employees of the same company I worked for. I cannot believe we don't have some type of legislation to protect people beyond the Civil Rights act. Harrassment and bullying are just as damaging and there is simply no protection. I would like to form a support group in my local city to discuss these issues and perhaps develop some type of public awareness for HR departments to issue to employees. I know this exists in other states and cities, but to my knowledge no one is doing it here. And this is the heartland where bullying and low grade terrorism is accepted as a way of life. I refuse! Love you guys! Thanks for the great responses! Debbie Message: 25 Hi Debbie: You're welcome. If EEOC does put through a complaint on gender discrimination, once you get to torts court your attorney can follow through in this area. Then it will be up to the torts judge to determine if this is a discrimination case or one that was a deliberate campaign to force you out of a job, by causing undue distresss, etc. Go to this website for the case I was speaking of: http://www.bullybusters.org I believe you will find it under U.S. legal matters. I wish you the best. Regards, Susan S.

Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations Message: 1 I was smart when they were doing this to me. I photocopied such documentation as I made them, each time I needed to. I also blind copied a personal account for every email account I wanted to document or record. I also copied an entire file that was at dispute with the particular individual involved. The originals stayed with the company, without them knowing I had the documents. Lynn Message: 2 It sounds to me like they are talking about employers who are forbidden by their own policies to say anything, good or bad, about an employee's performance. That's a scary article, all the same, given that most of our employers have gone to great lengths to make good employees look bad on paper, so that if employers are getting around "no comment", it means our former employers can slander us all they like. I hope that most employers are unable to get around the law or policy this way because, if you were a good employee, you can get a personal reference from your former supervisor and still get the positive message across. "No comment" is a protection for employees against being labeled unnecessarily as a risky hire. CL To everyone: If the employer that fires you has a "no comment" policy, what does this really mean? Is this really a way for all employers to use code words to tip each other off about the employee? Does "no comment" mean the employer can say nothing bad about an employee that was fired, but can praise a "good" employee? In other words, if the "no comment" policy is supposed to protect them legally, isn't the fact that it is "no comment" mean they are saying something negative? Christi (check out this article)

http://hr.monster.com/articles/wonttalk/

Message: 3 If such documentation related to grievances, or complaints to HR or other management, she has the right to a copy of this file. They CANNOT alter or destroy such documentation. If she goes to court, such documents must be made available upon discovery, and if the documentation were found to be altered or "missing", and others can corroborate it was there (e.g. a union rep recalling seeing it), then the company can be held liable. Lynn Message: 4 --- In ., . wrote: Its great to be able to interact with individuals who have experienced the same bullying and harrassment in the workplace. I am in the process of filing a gender discrimination charge against my previous employer with the EEOC. dear debbie,

after i was fired in an at will state (my bully thought he was immune because of this law) i immediately called an employment attorney. I was told to immediately (within 4 days) request a copy of my personnel record because by law they are required to produce it in 10 days. Then my attorney contacted the EEOC along with all their other business. the company just sat smug and we served them with a lawsuit about 3 months after the termination. boy were they surprised. as for the at will stuff, my attorney said that what is law and what is practice are two different things. we suited them for harrassment, breach of contract, battery, negligent infliction of emotional distress, and a few other things. of course harassment and other discrimination claims offer recovery for attorney fees because alot of attorneys work on contingency of recovery IF THEY THINK YOU HAVE A CASE. i won't say i know the law exactly about this but this is something to check out. Anyway, my personnel file was clean and we didn't go away so 2 ½ years later they settled one month before trial date. What hospital wants to go public with such scandel. as it was, the word got around because alot of the staff were deposed in the discovery process. I had to sit in these depositions and watch these people lie under oath it was stinky and disillusioning because they had pretended to be my buddies at work. hope some of this helps. Queste Message: 5 Queste... now I'm confused. My attorney did request my personnel file and their attorney replied that they did not have to give me a copy without a formal supoena. I do not believe there are any formal complaints in my file.... I want vindication! I thought I would retire from this company. My sales record was excellent. If I had been paid and treated fairly, I would have been in heaven. I loved what I did. I had just bought a house, I was paying off bills, I had joined a 401k...for the first time in eight years I felt like I had a future. This man ripped it all away and I don't even know if I will be able to find another job with unemployment so high. He is contesting my unemployment claim, barring me from Cobra, and now I have learned he is talking to others about my termination, insinuating that I was involved with students. I can't believe he is so malicious. It all started after I confronted him about a verbal promise of salary expectations. He told me that no one challenges him and he has done everything possible to force me to quit. When I refused and still became a top producer, he stopped advertising in the local market. I was four starts away from becoming a member of the Executive Club for top sales producers. That would have meant a huge raise, and a company paid trip. Last year they went to the Atlantis Resort in the Bahamas but the Executive Club consists of his "hand picked few". He did not want me there and did everything in his power to stop me. And when his actions went from harrassment to discrimination, I was ready to fight back. He just fired me before I had the chance to file a complaint. I swear, I will start a grassroots campaign to amend our state legislation to prevent this from continuing. I refuse to be victimized! Ok, I'm through venting! LOL Thanks for the input.... I'm going to have my attorney check into this tomorrow. I have sent him a copy of your email and Susan's wonderful article on the case in Mass that failed to prove gender discrimination but won on harrassment and retaliation. Everyone has been just great. Debbie Message: 6

Hi Debbie: I just came across your mail, and permit me to direct you to some good resources: Books: "Work Abuse..How to Recognize and Survive It", by Judith Wyatt and Chauncey Hare. "Brutal Bosses and Their Prey" Harvey Hornstein " Mobbing. Emotional Abuse in the Workplace" Noa Davenport, et al. You do not have to read these books from cover to cover, although you may want to, once you see what they have to share. I have a resource list of books and websites which I know will be of help to you if you wish me to send it to your email address. Just let me know. Greetings, Susan Shaub Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations Message: 7 The Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . . Rehumanizing Work Organizations (An affiliate of The Center For Anxiety Therapy)

654 Avenue C 2nd Floor Bayonne, New Jersey 07002 USA

Susan E. Shaub, MA., Ed., Founder/Director Tele. No. (201)

426-1143 Facsimile: (201) 436-1515 Email: RESOURCE LIST OF BOOKS AND WEB SITES ABOUT THE PHENOMENON OF WORKPLACE BULLYING, MOBBING AND EMOITONAL ABUSE IN THE WORKPLACE Books - Ø Mobbing - Abuse in the American Workplace, Noa Davenport, et al. Ø Bully In Sight - Tim Fields (order through internet) from United Kingdom. At http://www.successunlimited.co.uk Ø The Bully at Work Gary Namie, PhD., order from Barnes & Noble or Amazon.com. United States. Decent book about the phenomenon. Ø Emotional Abuse In the Workplace. Loreleigh Keashly, et al. Ø Brutal Bosses and Their Prey. How to Overcome Abuse in the Workplace. Hornstein, Harvey Ø Corporate Abuse- How Mean and Lean Robs Profits. L. Wright and M. Smye Ø Corporate Hyenas - Susan Marais Steinman (South Africa)

Ø Eliminating Professors: A Guide To the Dismissal Process. Kenneth Westhues, Phd., Canada. Kemper Collegium Publications Ø Post Traumatic Stress Disorder The Invisible Injury - Kinchin, David..order through Tim Field's largest website in the world - http://www.successunlimited.co.uk The United Kingdom Ø Work Abuse. How to Recognize It And Survive It. Wyatt J. and Hare, C. (Excellent resource book)

Ø The Phenomenon of Workplace Bullying and the Need for Status-blind Hostile Work Protection. Georgetown Law Journal March 2000, Vol. 88, No. 3. Ø Every Employees Guide to the Law: Everything You Need to Know In the Workplace, etc., Author: Lewin, G. Joel, III. This is a must book for anyone who works for a living. WEB SITES: RESOURCE & HELP INFORMATION ABOUT BULLYING, ETC Ø http://www.successunlimited.co.uk This is the largest in the world. Ø http://www.bullybusters.org United States Ø http://www.leymann.se/Enlish/frame.html Sweeden Ø http://www.edethics.org. U.S. Website developed by abused teachers: The American Society for Ethics in Education. Excellent site about the devastations in the U.S. educational system. Ø http:// (South Africa) Susan Marais Steinman

Ø email for help services: U.S.: Susan Shaub, MA., Ed., Work trauma specialist. Website to be established during the summer of 2001.

Note: All web sites will offer help, and offer you other links for papers, statistics, books, etc. offers on line coaching services, and membership. If web sites want to know how you found their website, please advise that you were referred by Susan Shaub, at the International World Congress of Logotherapy or The Institute For Dignity in The Workplace. I offer this to members for those who need another spiritual boost.

Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations

Message: 8

Thanks Sue, seems that you have quite a list of resources for people. There are a few more I am going to check out myself. Lynn Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com

Message: 9 Great that you have other resources! I believe the first step is educating and validatin what people have been through. There are very few researchers, and/or therapists, psychologists who have attempted to investigate this. Any other resources you may have, I would be very much pleased to know about. Greetings, Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations Message: 10 --- In ., . wrote: Queste... now I'm confused. My attorney did request my personnel file and hi debbie, i am so sorry for your loss. Your story sounds so familiar in the audacity and arrogance that bullies have, even when it is not in their own best interests, i.e. why would you want to mistreat one of your top sales people. what an idiot, yet often it is the most competent who deal with this abuse. Jealousy? I don't know what the law is in your state but I am from Minnesota and this is what I heard my attorney say to me. Who knows, the defendant's attorney in your case may just be bluffing or stalling for time. Psychological intimidation and wearing down of the target is a big tactic for the defense, including trying to get you to lose your cool during depositions or to catch you in an error so as to impeach your testimony. It was very good for my self-esteem to hang in there and fight this. I learned things I didn't want to know and have PTSD and take meds not only from the work but the trauma of litigation (revictimizing that discourages alot of people from going after bullies) It is amazing to me that when the women's movement started some of the greatest opponents were other women - go figure. Courage and great faith to you, Queste Message: 11 Debbie, My attorney did request my personnel file and their attorney replied that they did not have to give me a copy without a formal supoena. This is a favorite bully trick. Whether or not they can get away with it depends on your state laws. While you are employed, most employers have to grant you access to your personnel and other files (they often keep separate medical and/or insurance files). If you are fired or resign, in some states this nullifies your claim to these records without a subpeona. It's wise practice for all employees to review their files at least once a year. Some states have laws limiting access to these files to once a year. Other states grant access whenever requested. This man ripped it all away and I don't even know if I will be able to find another job with unemployment so high. He is contesting my unemployment claim, barring me from Cobra, and now I have learned he is talking to others about my termination, insinuating that I was involved with students. This is also a favorite trick. Interesting how similar these cases are, isn' t it? I once worked with a teacher who was being targeted in the same manner. She was very attractive and dressed very professionally (though not to the liking of the administration). She was accused of having sex with high school students and of sitting on desks with open legs in front of male students while wearing short skirts. Both claims were absolutely fabricated. However, these types of claims are hard to fight back against and designed to damage reputation. I can't believe he is so malicious. Unfortunately, I can. And when his actions went from harrassment to discrimination, I was ready to fight back. Good for you! He just fired me before I had the chance to file a complaint.

How "convenient". As strange as it may sound, in the US, you are better off to let them fire you. If you resign, you give up any legal claims you may have had and also your ability to collect unemployment if you are unable to find another job quickly. Ok, I'm through venting! LOL

Nineveh is a very safe place to vent. You are talking to people who definitely understand! I have sent him a copy of your email and Susan's wonderful article on the case in Mass that failed to prove gender discrimination but won on harrassment and retaliation. This was a precedent setting case for the US. Jennifer Message: 12 Hi guys, can someone please send me a copy of this case you are raving about. or is it somewhere in our postings? thanks. Queste Message: 13 Debbie, Susan recommended: Books: "Work Abuse..How to Recognize and Survive It", by Judith Wyatt and Chauncey Hare. "Brutal Bosses and Their Prey" Harvey Hornstein " Mobbing. Emotional Abuse in the Workplace" Noa Davenport, et al.

I'd also add to this list Bully In Sight by Tim Field I also recommend (though it's a children's book) Bullies Are A Pain In The Brain by Trevor Romain. This particular book gets the basic defense strategies across and is an excellent choice for targets suffering PTSD with attention/focusing difficulties. Most adults could read it cover to cover in about an hour. Helpful websites: http://www.successunlimited.co.uk http://www.mobbing-usa.com http://www.bullybusters.org Jennifer Message: 14 Queste, can someone please send me a copy of this case you are raving about. or is it somewhere in our postings? thanks.

Here ya go: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nineveh/message/112 Jennifer Message: 15 Dear Queste: I thought I sent it to you;. I am attaching it to this letter and will use your personal email address because there has been some difficulty with the internet forum to do so. Here it is. Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations

Message: 16 Thanks Jennifer... I feel like its my birthday with all of this great information!!!! Message: 17

Susan, Queste, Elyse, and all, Susan wrote: Dear Queste: I thought I sent it to you;. I am attaching it to this letter and will use your personal email address because there has been some difficulty with the internet forum to do so. Here it is.

Apologies for the inconvenience. Guy has disabled the attachment ability temporarily again due to another virus threat that was detected. You will be unable to send attachments to the forum for awhile. You may however, post the URL of any articles or sites and you may also still copy and paste items of relevance.

Jennifer Message: 19

Hi, Jennifer, HOw do we find out which states have what policy regarding looking at our personnel files? J Message: 20 Hi J, HOw do we find out which states have what policy regarding looking at our personnel files?

You can probably pull the state laws up in any search engine. I'd suggest typing in State Employment Laws and the name of your state. You should be able to find something this way.

Jennifer Message: 21 Debbie, I hope the EEOC will find probable gender discrimination and release me to take it to court. Thats when I can bring in the bullying and malicious harrassment. I think I have searched every webpage on the net for information and it is amazing to me how often this happens and how helpless we are to prevent it. I suggest that you also research the OSHA laws. The "new" guidelines are written in such a way that they COULD be interpreted to cover prevention of psychological injury. This has never been tested in US courts but I believe that the OSHA rules & regs do encompass our issue. Jennifer Message: 22 http://www.iinet.net.au/~scratchy/himchristian.html It is amazing to me that when the women's movement started some of the greatest opponents were other women - go figure. Courage and great faith to you, Queste Queste, I think that this is still the case, although the battlground has become more subtle and psychological. Most women only know ONE way to reach power, and that is by sucking up to power. They are threatened by another woman's failure to do so, and will use every technique they have to undermine her. I do not know why this has to be this way.

Message: 23 http://www.ewin.com/articles/access.htm This has some good information on different state laws...Which state has viewer rights of personnel files and which ones don't..... Message: 24 Christi, Thanks so much for your informative reply. You're welcome. Unfortunately, I did not keep copies of the email exchanges at home. I had both hard copies and saved files on my computer at work. I had no idea they would ever take these from me.

Ok. Many targets get caught in this trap. It's not your fault, but you will know better in the future.

I love this forum.....

I'm pleased to know this. we are all going to become experts on the law and the bullies better watch out!!!!!!!

Yep. Like it or not, WE are the experts! I don't want to get too depressed, but this year has been pretty hard.

Understood. This is the way I like to use my energy. If we can all help each other, we will win.

You make a great addition to Nineveh. Jennifer

Message: 25 In a message dated 11/11/01 9:24:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes: << Apologies for the inconvenience. Guy has disabled the attachment ability temporarily again due to another virus threat that was detected. You will be unable to send attachments to the forum for awhile. You may however, post the URL of any articles or sites and you may also still copy and paste items of relevance.

Je >> Thank you for alerting the forum about "attachment abilities." No problem. If members want some resources I will send them to their email address. I understand the internet probolem, so don't get upset about it. Hugs to you, Susan S. Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations

Message: 1 WE are the experts. Do not doubt that we are nothing less. Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations Message: 2 Queste, I think that this is still the case, although the battlground has become more subtle and psychological.

Most women only know ONE way to reach power, and that is by sucking up to power. They are threatened by another woman's failure to do so, and will use every technique they have to undermine her. I do not know why this has to be this way. Sorry i couldn't resist trying to create a catchy subject title! thanks for your validation, it was an unexpected treat. This explains alot of the dynamics of my personal damage. if you have any more thoughts i'd really like to hear them. Queste Message: 3

thanks for sending me the case. i don't know if maybe i don't know how to download or something but when i tried all this smbolic language came up not english. there is so much i don't know about computers, cut and paste, attachments, etc. i need help. but fear not - i was referred back to message 112 and its all there on the record of nineveh postings! if you want to explain why i don't get english and teach me how to do any computer tricks i 'm ready to learn! queste Message: 4 I agree!!! And it is unfortunate that it continues to happen because it makes it so difficult for other women to be recoginized for talents other than extracurricular! They were probably the ones who cheated on mid term exams....easier to cheat and manipulate than use their brain! LOL Ok, no more bashing, I promise... well maybe once in a while! Message: 5 CL, I'll look into it! Thanks for your comments. Christi

C L wrote: Christi, others may know of one, but I never heard of such, except through a union or the court system. My employer, for instance, is known at the union and with court involved types as a bullying employer, but prospective employees are ignorant of their reputation. I wonder, though, about filing something at the Better Business Bureau or getting a publication to start listing this type of thing? If they are risking costly lawsuits by bullying employees, I'm sure customers and shareholders would be interested! CL Are there places that we can file complaints about businesses just like Message: 6 Debbie, Thanks for the info. A public support group in your local city to discuss these issues would be a great idea! I know that businesses talk amongst themselves about employees so that they can "network" them out. We should be able to do the same. Good luck with your group! Christi wrote: Hey Christi: I think this is a great idea, although it could almost result in slander. I was part of a group of Temporary Help agencies who met to discuss certain businesses who would not pay, as well as temp employees who went from one agency to another to file unemployment. Unfortunately, a participant in the group mentioned to the owner of a certain business who was notorious for not paying their bills, that they were being marked as a bad account. The business owner threatened to sue, the group disbanded... it was a real mess. When I consulted an employment law attorney about my situation she laughed and said half her phone calls were from ex employees of the same company I worked for. I cannot believe we don't have some type of legislation to protect people beyond the Civil Rights act. Harrassment and bullying are just as damaging and there is simply no protection. I would like to form a support group in my local city to discuss these issues and perhaps develop some type of public awareness for HR departments to issue to employees. I know this exists in other states and cities, but to my knowledge no one is doing it here. And this is the heartland where bullying and low grade terrorism is accepted as a way of life. I refuse! Love you guys! Thanks for the great responses! Debbie Message: 7 --- Hi scratchy, please send more thoughts on the dynamics of women undermining one another. this has been one of my greatest hurts and sorrows. by the way, Dawn destructo new therapist at my clinic has now decided she's putting her name in the schedule book in the hours where i have been putting mine for the past years. this job was basically mellow till she came and i had an instinct about her immediately. I have called my director twice, since after i talked to him the first time i noticed Dawn went back to last wed and put her initials in the book after the fact to make it look like she had reserved the office before me when actually she just showed up and took it. the director hates conflict, but has agreed to talk to her since he "doesn't want a fight." i'm considering showing up 3 hours earlier than usual just to claim the office but wonder if i'm stooping too low. don't kno w when to be mellow and trust the process and when to take action. this crazy feeling is coming back to me like when i was in other toxic work environments. Please god no! i thought i was in a safe place. i am considering putting my degrees up in that office. by the time we get around to having our next staff meeting to discuss office schedules a lot of damage could be done. i need your insights and prayers. queste Message: 8 CL, Friday, she actually said I should drop my cases because I have to "think about [my] future"!!!

This is a threat. You know the drill...document, document, document. Follow up with "clarification" memos. Make sure this gets recorded in your journal and any witnesses, dates, etc are noted.

Please note in the Mass case, it was the target's JOURNAL that swayed the jury on the retaliation charge. Jennifer Message: 9 Hi Susan - Thank you for answering my mail, I really appreciate it..I know how swamped you are right now! To answer your question, no you hadn't already answered that mail. I have not had a chance to talk either to the Supervisor of Nick's in home workers, nor to the Dr. That David Yamada has recommended. I had planned on doing both last Thursday, however there was a death in my late Husband's family and that meant an out of town obligation for me. Nick was away camping with Boy Scouts (his older Brother, Matt took him) all weekend and they arrived home this morning. He had a blast. This trip did wonders for their relationship and I am proud of Matt for stepping up to the plate and giving up his weekend for his little brother! I had planned on resting, because as I previously stated, I just can't seem to get enough sleep and my arthritis is killing me. I did call my MD on Thursday to see if he had any samples of my arthritis meds until this medical insurance thing is straightened out and the office didn't call me with an answer until I was heading out the door for the wake which was in a different direction and out of town. He does not have any samples, however offered to give me a different medication to try for now to see if it will help any. I will be picking it up on Tuesday morning. However, I came home from the funeral luncheon yesterday afternoon feeling sick to my stomach and was up all night, not even being able to keep down tea. This funeral was the first I have attended since Denis' death, so I was concerned that the trauma of it might be the culprit. It was a very emotional event, with everyone who I haven't basically seen since Denis' funeral asking alot of questions. I felt exhausted when I got in. This morning I woke up aching from head to toe, with a very sick stomach and have been in the bathroom most of the day! I have a very sore, red throat and my ears hurt, as well as my sinus, I have a low grade temp and feel like I have a sinus infection. Once again.....no health insurance! When I pick up the Arthritis meds, I will ask about getting some samples of my Clariton, which I only have 3 left of and also maybe some sample antibiotics. This all stinks and is adding to my depression! We are supposed to leave on Friday for our Condo in New Hampshire for the week and will return the Sunday after Thanksgiving. I am really looking forward to that. Nick and I will be there alone from Saturday morning til Weds. Night and then Matt and his Girlfriend will join us. Nick is excited to be going skiing! Matt is paying for him to have another lesson as part of his Christmas present to him! Susan, I did try to reach Dr. Hallowell via the web address you gave me and my letter came back as undeliverable, so I am going to try to call him on Tuesday. He lives remarkably close to me (within 45 min.) I am also going to ask him if he is aware of anyone at Harvard who might be willing to take on my case. He writes a bit about how stress can affect you also. I found that interesting! I do understand about you not having the time to testify for my case really. It's just that I feel I know you somewhat and certainly do trust you, so that would be a big comfort to me. I wouldn't worry about being seen as an outsider either. I find it interesting though that David Yamada had this same thought of us hiring the Dr. from New York (that the Judge might not like it), who we have not ruled out as of yet. We did find another Dr. in Philadelphia, but he is much more expensive and wants $3,000 upfront and then $350. per hour to review the medical records! I can't believe this...On top of all that we have been through...(please excuse my bluntness and crudeness) I feel as if I am being raped! (just add a little more trauma, and by a Dr. no less!) Please do not get me wrong, I know that they deserve to be paid and I have no qualms about paying, however, I find it hard to believe that anyone is worth $350.00 per hour! I don't care who they are! What are people supposed to do? I am at least fortunate enough to have a little money left in the estate from My late Father-in-law! This all makes me very sad...no wonder people take the law into there own hands...they have little choice to get justice at times! Nick has had a remarkable weekend to date, he did have one brief explosion this morning after coming home, he was feeling a bit overwhelmed...anxious to play...but not knowing what he wanted to do first and became easily frustrated. Come to find out, he didn't sleep much and is exhausted...was asleep on the couch in a flash tonight! Tuesday, I will find out what happened about the counseling. I do know that briefly speaking to the male councilor on Friday before I left he said that a few changes will be made in the way things will take place, but did not elaborate because Nick came in the house, and we do not speak in front of him about these things. As far as behavioral plans, we have tried a myriad of them. Even at school and they do work to some extent. Nick's Dr. agreed to the plan they wanted to implement, but did not feel that he should be constantly punished either. Also there plan did not allow for any type of immediate rewards, which Nick needs to have to stay on target...so we discussed things he could earn on a daily basis and things on a bit larger scale he could earn at the end of the week. Daily rewards would be...staying up ½ hour later, watching a special movie with me, or playing a special game, doing a craft, etc. Weekly rewards were more, going to a friends, renting a video game, or movie, or going to a movie, being able to pick out a small toy $2 -$3. range, etc. Some of the first plans we implemented were put in place by the Local Children's Hospital (Bradley Hospital) and by us working with there staff and the school sending a rep and the school Psychologist to learn the plan before implementing it. We supplied the rewards (cash ins) to the school. This worked while he was little, but he sort of grew out of it. Then we moved on the him earning Nick Money (paper Money we printed on the computer) and he collected them for as long as he wanted to. There was a chart that he could chose things to spend them on, or he could hold on to them. Some of those rewards were tied into school things like an extra 10 minutes on the school computer, getting to help the teachers with special things and even being able to take something special of his into the class for a special presentation of show and tell, which got his classmates involved with him and helped his self esteem. One of the things, I'm not sure if I made clear to everyone with my last 2 posts where I spoke about the Female Counselor and Nick's treatment and attitude with herby stand behind her 100% in front of Nick....If I have a problem, we discuss it after he leaves for school, or on the phone after he leaves the following day, etc. I also put him to bed early and have been doing this on a very consistent basis each time he is disrespectful or hurtful in any way to her. That means no TV and Bed 2 hours earlier than usual. And I stick to my guns! Last week I took away the privilege of going with his Uncle to the Fire station (he's a firefighter)

where he was going to get to see the fire dog, get a ride on the truck of his choice and help clean one of the trucks. They were also going to look for an old fire hat with a face shield for Nick to take home! He was extremely upset about losing this trip and I made it very clear that under no circumstances would I allow him to go even in the future until he starts showing more respect for her and tows the line! She thought I did not do enough! This is what frustrates me and now I have issues when I know she is coming! I actually find myself leaving the house and staying away until she is ready to leave! This is not a good situation! What is all of this doing to Nick? I feel that he views her as a bully to me and me as weak for putting up with it and I also feel to some extent he acts out....out of the need to protect me! What is your feeling on this? Am I being too much of an emotional MOM? Susan, it is so hard to separate myself from this, but in my gut, I feel it is the wrong approach! I will speak to Dr. Hallowell this week and I am still reading The Explosive Child (which after all these years and many books under my belt...is the ONLY one so far that makes any real sense to me!) I feel like I am reading Nick's life story in detail! Well, Susan, sorry to have gone on so....I wish you luck with your work...and thank you from the bottom of my heart for your help! God Bless! Kathy Message: 10

Well, now my ADhD self is completely overwhelmed with reading to do, LOL! Thank you for posting the list, Susan! I will be saving this one! CL The Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . . Rehumanizing Work Organizations (An affiliate of The Center For Anxiety Therapy)

654 Avenue C 2nd Floor Bayonne, New Jersey 07002 USA Message: 11

Hi Everyone - I want to welcome all the new members! I can't believe how we are growing! I wish you all the best, you will get great support and advice here. You are among friends! Has anyone heard from Terry yet? I did send her a very brief note last week, but no answer. I do know that her new employer pays by the minute for his Internet time and monitors everyone, so she must be still working on getting her own computer straightened out! I sent a reply to Susan and in that have explained why I have been away the last few days. There was a death in Denis' family last Wednesday and I have been out of town attending the wake and funeral which were very difficult for me (the first funeral since his death). Then I got sick and think I have a touch of the flu and a sinus infection! I've feel lousy! It will take me a few days to catch up with everyone, but I wanted to quickly add my 2 cents to the new members. Debbie, I know nothing of the EEOC, I know that many members do and if Terry were on with us, she would have a myriad of information for you. I'm sure that will be forthcoming from others here for you. Good Luck to you! I also live in an at-will state and could do nothing about the job I was let go from this summer and still don't know the real reason I was let go! I know how you must be feeling. We have all been there my dear! For Ednchris (?) don't know your name! Whenever you are gathering evidence or taking notes, do so inconspicuously, and take them home....Do not leave a trace of anything behind....Technically...they can say...you used there paper....it stays there! I do agree with all of the advice you have received so far...RUN to the attorney and have him issue a subpoena right away..or injunction, whatever the legal term is! The Lawyer for my late Husband's employer tried to get out of turning over files and notes by telling the Judge that he was not quite clear that any such information existed!!!!! Clever!! He was ordered to turn over any and all files....We told the Judge that My Husband and others in fact had meeting with the person who's notes etc were in question and that this person was in fact taking notes the whole time....Do you really think the judge was going to allow them to say they did not know if in fact they existed when he was seen taking notes! Good luck to you also! For everyone else, you are all in my thoughts and prayers and in good hands here with the others. As for me....my Arthritis is still killing me and I am having trouble typing this, so I will say good night for now! God Bless you all! Kathy Message: 12 Hi CL - I would personally save everything! This would mean more to a judge I think! I know in my case....Denis notes, which he did daily on the computer at the end of each shift at home....went a long way in the Judge's mind! The judge said that the notes that Denis took and I turned over were as if Denis were right there in his court room testifying! Good luck! God Bless! Kathy Message: 13 Wow Kathy, another wonderful member!!! Thank you so much for your response. I appreciate each and every bit of information I have received.... more than any of you can possibly realize! I love my new family! Debbie Message: 14 Is this why the new (first non-white, non-male) female administrator is now threatening me about my future? I wouldn't dare actually say this, but I was thinking today how satisfying it would have been to see the look on her face if I asked her if Rosa Parks should have "thought about her future" when she refused to sit in the back of the bus. I'm shocked to see myself WRITE that, but that's how very, very angry I was when she said that. She WAS thinking of her future AND the future of others, and so am I, darn it! What sort of future do I have there if I allow that written retaliation sit in my file anyhow??? They will feel even more confident when they next choose to attack. Grrrrrr . . . . CL http://www.iinet.net.au/~scratchy/himchristian.html It is amazing to me that when the women's movement started some of the greatest opponents were other women - go figure. Courage and great faith to you, Queste Queste, I think that this is still the case, although the battlground has become more subtle and psychological. Most women only know ONE way to reach power, and that is by sucking up to power. They are threatened by another woman's failure to do so, and will use every technique they have to undermine her. I do not know why this has to be this way. Message: 15 Hi Jen - Great advice! I never thought about the medications! I have always kept extra bottles (I had made up at the pharmacy) with small amounts of my meds in one of my desk drawers in a cosmetic bag! I never thought of this! Thanks...I will be very aware in the future! God Bless! Kathy Message: 16 Lynn, I had personal copied all the email exchanges in the beginning, but the company gained my trust by putting me on probation, working with me through the probation and then telling me I was doing very well and they see no problems. Shortly after that, I was fired for a reason without basis. There were many emails that I had not personal copied, but I had hard copies of them in my desk at that point. But they took those from me when I was asked to unpack my desk. Christi

Lynn G wrote: I was smart when they were doing this to me. I photocopied such documentation as I made them, each time I needed to. I also blind copied a personal account for every email account I wanted to document or record. I also copied an entire file that was at dispute with the particular individual involved. The originals stayed with the company, without them knowing I had the documents. Lynn Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com Message: 17 Kewl!!! Jennifer or Susan or anyone out there who has been organizing things for a while, any thoughts on how to get something like this started if there isn't an avenue for this already? CL

CL, I'll look into it! Thanks for your comments. Christi

C L wrote: Christi, others may know of one, but I never heard of such, except through a union or the court system. My employer, for instance, is known at the union and with court involved types as a bullying employer, but prospective employees are ignorant of their reputation. I wonder, though, about filing something at the Better Business Bureau or getting a publication to start listing this type of thing? If they are risking costly lawsuits by bullying employees, I'm sure customers and shareholders would be interested! CL Are there places that we can file complaints about businesses just like Message: 18 Hi Debbie - You are very welcome! We are very supportive of each other here and it certainly does feel like a family! Good Luck to you! God Bless! Kathy Message: 19 Thanks, Jennifer! Maybe it will be the "archived mail" file that sways the jury in my case??? Um, are you SURE I should try a clarification memo after seeing my comment on Rosa Parks? It could get dicey. ;) Seriously, I'm not sure I could write a nice one and I bet she would deny saying it anyhow. There were no witnesses. CL CL, Friday, she actually said I should drop my cases because I have to "think about [my] future"!!! Message: 20 Hi Christie - Wow, that sounds like my ex-employer! I closed the books the first month I was there (never having done that before because we had an accountant do it where I used to work) and my figures were right on....We were off by $100.00 and found the error ...not mine! It was my boss (office manager). A week later, she started my benefits (paid holidays) 2 months early stating I was doing so well...a week after that she told me she was going to start my health insurance.....the following week.....out of the blue...she followed me out the door of the main building and told me my services were no longer needed! (We were scheduled to close the books again 2 days later!) That's employment in an At will state for ya! I now refer to this as "my summer job" and it will not be added to my resume! Good Luck and God Bless! Kathy Message: 21 Hello Kathy,

I hope you feel better fast. Thanks for the advice. I did keep some hard copies only in my desk, but this was to be used internally to show them proof that my performance evaluation was negative without basis. I kept them in my desk so that I could show them if I did not receive my raise. Instead of requesting my proof, they put me on probation and let me work through it. Afterwards, they told me I was doing great and I would be receiving an award. I never received the award, and I was fired when I got back from vacation. Since I really thought I would be staying in the company because they sounded positive, I was not careful about clearing my desk. They got me by surprise. When they fired me, they watched while I emptied my desk and asked what every piece of paper was. The ones that had email exchanges were taken from me. My computer was gone. Can I still go to an attorney if I was fired on October 10th? I think I had to file suit within 4 days or 10 or something? Thanks and feel better soon! Christi

wrote: Hi Everyone - I want to welcome all the new members! I can't believe how we are growing! I wish you all the best, you will get great support and advice here. You are among friends! Message: 22 I like your title! What would you like me to pontificate on? No, seriously... My bullying experience happened a number of years agao, and I have pretty much analyses all the socio-psychological reasons for what occured. I am not sure about some things, still, but a lot of them I have down quite clearly in my head, and in writing, to some degree, also. So, if I can help...? http://www.iinet.net.au/~scratchy/himchristian.html Queste, I think that this is still the case, although the battlground has become more subtle and psychological. Message: 23 CL, Whenever I felt that I was bullied, I would write an email addressing the situation and I would always send it with a "read receipt" so that I can prove that the other party has read it. That proves that the exchange took place and that you tried to resolve it in a professional manner. And if any interaction takes place verbally, always right a feedback email to confirm what was said and being done about the incident. This is great proof! Christi

C L wrote: Thanks, Jennifer! Maybe it will be the "archived mail" file that sways the jury in my case???

Um, are you SURE I should try a clarification memo after seeing my comment on Rosa Parks? It could get dicey. ;) Seriously, I'm not sure I could write a nice one and I bet she would deny saying it anyhow. There were no witnesses. CL CL, Friday, she actually said I should drop my cases because I have to "think about [my] future"!!!

Message: 24

Hey Debbie- You sound like an awesome employee. I wonder if he felt threatened by your success in any way. Maybe he was afraid that you would take his job someday, and so he eliminates all those that jeopardize that! Just a thought.....That should not be allowed! I guess I am forever trying to understand the bully mentality so that next time it happens to me I can play psycho games with him or her to stroke their ego. My first thought is to collect documentation, form a case, and sue. But you know, there are so many bullies out there! There is usually one in every job. Please let me know what you learn from your attorney. Thanks! Christi wrote: Queste... now I'm confused. My attorney did request my personnel file and their attorney replied that they did not have to give me a copy without a formal supoena. I do not believe there are any formal complaints in my file.... I want vindication! I thought I would retire from this company. My sales record was excellent. If I had been paid and treated fairly, I would have been in heaven. I loved what I did. I had just bought a house, I was paying off bills, I had joined a 401k...for the first time in eight years I felt like I had a future. This man ripped it all away and I don't even know if I will be able to find another job with unemployment so high. He is contesting my unemployment claim, barring me from Cobra, and now I have learned he is talking to others about my termination, insinuating that I was involved with students. I can't believe he is so malicious. It all started after I confronted him about a verbal promise of salary expectations. He told me that no one challenges him and he has done everything possible to force me to quit. When I refused and still became a top producer, he stopped advertising in the local market. I was four starts away from becoming a member of the Executive Club for top sales producers. That would have meant a huge raise, and a company paid trip. Last year they went to the Atlantis Resort in the Bahamas but the Executive Club consists of his "hand picked few". He did not want me there and did everything in his power to stop me. And when his actions went from harrassment to discrimination, I was ready to fight back. He just fired me before I had the chance to file a complaint. I swear, I will start a grassroots campaign to amend our state legislation to prevent this from continuing. I refuse to be victimized! Ok, I'm through venting! LOL

Thanks for the input.... I'm going to have my attorney check into this tomorrow. I have sent him a copy of your email and Susan's wonderful article on the case in Mass that failed to prove gender discrimination but won on harrassment and retaliation. Everyone has been just great. Debbie Message: 25

was gone. Can I still go to an attorney if I was fired on October 10th? I think I had to file suit within 4 days or 10 or something? Thanks and feel better soon! Christi

hi christi, when i was forced to resign my attorney said i had 4 days to request my personnel file. I know there is a statue of limitations on suing but its more like a year or something. check it out in your state. Queste Message: 1 I feel a need to comment on this. When it comes to stroking your bully's ego, one needs to be very careful if you are female and your bully is male. The bully might think you are interested in stroking more than his ego. I'm very serious about that. I played office politics and was very complimentary to my supervisor at one time. I'm not sure how much it had to do with him going off the deep end the day of the incident, but the circumstances suggest it certainly didn't help that I had told him often what a good supervisor and nice guy he was. It's been on my mind lately as I have had more going on with my case again that there is one or two added components of harm in sexual type harassment. It has a personal aspect to it and, as would be true in racial harassment/discrimination as well, there is the feeling of having been lumped in with a group perceived by "good old boys" as "less than". Bullying behavior is damaging enough and there needs to be tough laws against it, but when if the bullying includes these other components, it just makes it that much more difficult to deal with. It's something to avoid at all costs. Instincts guide us some, but I will be very careful whose ego I stroke in the future. If I don't know the person's behavior patterns very well or if the person's behavior toward me gives me the creeps instinctively, I will not be handing out compliments. Just a thought, CL Hey Debbie- You sound like an awesome employee. I wonder if he felt threatened by your success in any way. Maybe he was afraid that you would take his job someday, and so he eliminates all those that jeopardize that! Just a thought.....That should not be allowed! I guess I am forever trying to understand the bully mentality so that next time it happens to me I can play psycho games with him or her to stroke their ego. My first thought is to collect documentation, form a case, and sue. But you know, there are so many bullies out there! There is usually one in every job. Please let me know what you learn from your attorney. Thanks! Christi wrote: Message: 2 Yes. A firm stand against bullying is, in the long run, the way to save us all a lot of pain. Ego stroking only play into the bully's delusions of grandeur, and helps to put him or her further out of touch with reality. And reality is where we have our homes.. http://www.iinet.net.au/~scratchy/himchristian.html

I feel a need to comment on this. When it comes to stroking your bully's ego, one needs to be very careful if you are female and your bully is male. The bully might think you are interested in stroking more than his ego. I'm very serious about that. I played office politics and was very complimentary to my supervisor at one time. I'm not sure how much it had to do with him going off the deep end the day of the incident, but the circumstances suggest it certainly didn't help that I had told him often what a good supervisor and nice guy he was. It's been on my mind lately as I have had more going on with my case again that there is one or two added components of harm in sexual type harassment. It has a personal aspect to it and, as would be true in racial harassment/discrimination as well, there is the feeling of having been lumped in with a group perceived by "good old boys" as "less than". Bullying behavior is damaging enough and there needs to be tough laws against it, but when if the bullying includes these other components, it just makes it that much more difficult to deal with. It's something to avoid at all costs. Instincts guide us some, but I will be very careful whose ego I stroke in the future. If I don't know the person's behavior patterns very well or if the person's behavior toward me gives me the creeps instinctively, I will not be handing out compliments. Just a thought, CL Hey Debbie- You sound like an awesome employee. I wonder if he felt threatened by your success in any way. Maybe he was afraid that you would take his job someday, and so he eliminates all those that jeopardize that! Just a thought.....That should not be allowed! I guess I am forever trying to understand the bully mentality so that next time it happens to me I can play psycho games with him or her to stroke their ego. My first thought is to collect documentation, form a case, and sue. But you know, there are so many bullies out there! There is usually one in every job. Please let me know what you learn from your attorney. Thanks! Christi wrote: Queste... now I'm confused. My attorney did request my personnel file and their attorney replied that they did not have to give me a copy without a formal supoena. I do not believe there are any formal complaints in my file.... I want vindication! I thought I would retire from this company. My sales record was excellent. If I had been paid and treated fairly, I would have been in heaven. I loved what I did. I had just bought a house, I was paying off bills, I had joined a 401k...for the first time in eight years I felt like I had a future. This man ripped it all away and I don't even know if I will be able to find another job with unemployment so high. He is contesting my unemployment claim, barring me from Cobra, and now I have learned he is talking to others about my termination, insinuating that I was involved with students. I can't believe he is so malicious. It all started after I confronted him about a verbal promise of salary expectations. He told me that no one challenges him and he has done everything possible to force me to quit. When I refused and still became a top producer, he stopped advertising in the local market. I was four starts away from becoming a member of the Executive Club for top sales producers. That would have meant a huge raise, and a company paid trip. Last year they went to the Atlantis Resort in the Bahamas but the Executive Club consists of his "hand picked few". He did not want me there and did everything in his power to stop me. And when his actions went from harrassment to discrimination, I was ready to fight back. He just fired me before I had the chance to file a complaint. I swear, I will start a grassroots campaign to amend our state legislation to prevent this from continuing. I refuse to be victimized! Ok, I'm through venting! LOL

Thanks for the input.... I'm going to have my attorney check into this tomorrow. I have sent him a copy of your email and Susan's wonderful article on the case in Mass that failed to prove gender discrimination but won on harrassment and retaliation. Everyone has been just great. Debbie Message: 3 Hi Kathy-It looks like many employers operate this way! Scary! I have never had this experience before. I had some valuable experience in this job at the beginning...that is why I am thinking that the bully starts the bullying behavior when you are successful. Then they seem to enjoy damaging you! I want to keep them on my resume. So I had an independent job reference agency contact them to see what they would say. They told the job reference agency that they could only verify dates of employement, job title and job summary. Now my only focus is whether this in itself can be damaging to my career. In other words, I want to find out if when an employer gives NO information about your performance, does this tell prospective employers that you are unhirable? I am trying to get information from HR organizations on how the industry works. I chose to focus on this instead of a lawsuit right now, but I might change my mind after hearing everyone being abused so badly in this forum!! Thanks so much! Christi wrote: Hi Christie - Wow, that sounds like my ex-employer! I closed the books the first month I was there (never having done that before because we had Message: 4 Susan Thank you so much for taking the time to create this very helpful list, as well as telling something about yourself and your credentials. I have already forwarded it to several professionals who will benefit from it. I am still trying to find a therapist with competency in this area, and have a new Dr. who is trying to assist me. I think your material may help. Gerriann Message: 1 Debbie, I love my new family! Welcome home! Jennifer Message: 2 CL-yes! save the originals...it is a perfect compliment to the organized notes. like i said, the attorney who investigated in my case, was impressed, i could tell. no one would put themselves through all that documenting without a good reason. and the scribble is proof that you were interrupting your work to take notes...anyway, that's the way i see it. remember, a jury is generally made up of 12 K-mart shoppers that are tough to fool. lawyers know that. they also know that juries are entirely unpredictable. right is might. you have no reason to lie. the bully does, and he/she will eventually unravel to someone. also, bullies are so self involved that they miss the big picture. time is on our side. julie from nj Message: 3 CL-over all, i think you are in good shape here! you are one step further than i, (with the civil rights claim) and you have the sexual harrassment to fall back on if you have to. is your employer in the public or private sector? i think that public employees (i am one) have an edge in the sense that polititicans are always worried about the way things look. and also they are on limited terms, and may not always be around. private on the other hand, is not under the scrunity of the taxpaying public. your union rep does not sound as if he is doing his job. i now understand why you took the shot and went to management. they have to know by now that he is lazy. i don't think it was a bad thing to do, in retropect. at least they know that you are smart enough to try and straighten things out yourself, and feel (when they are a little worn down, and put their egos aside) that they can make a deal with you (and civil rights, or whomever represents you at any given time) and with any luck, that will be it. in the meantime, it wouldn't hurt to try and keep your union honest. what would you think about going over your reps head? too risky? keep me posted. regards, julie from nj Message: 4 ednchris wrote: Hey CL-You are sooooo right! When I wrote that about stroking the bully's ego, it occurred to me that my thinking is exactly what makes me a vulnerable target. These bullies do indeed have insecurity problems, but I don't think it helps to feed the ego at the expense of our own development on the job. Thanks for waking me up and putting me in my place. I need you guys!! Christi C L wrote: I feel a need to comment on this. When it comes to stroking your bully's ego, one needs to be very careful if you are female and your bully is male. The bully might think you are interested in stroking more than his ego. I'm very serious about that. I played office politics and was very complimentary to my supervisor at one time. I'm not sure how much it had to do with him going off the deep end the day of the incident, but the circumstances suggest it certainly didn't help that I had told him often what a good supervisor and nice guy he was. It's been on my mind lately as I have had more going on with my case again that there is one or two added components of harm in sexual type harassment. It has a personal aspect to it and, as would be true in racial harassment/discrimination as well, there is the feeling of having been lumped in with a group perceived by "good old boys" as "less than". Bullying behavior is damaging enough and there needs to be tough laws against it, but when if the bullying includes these other components, it just makes it that much more difficult to deal with. It's something to avoid at all costs. Instincts guide us some, but I will be very careful whose ego I stroke in the future. If I don't know the person's behavior patterns very well or if the person's behavior toward me gives me the creeps instinctively, I will not be handing out compliments. Just a thought, CL Hey Debbie- You sound like an awesome employee. I wonder if he felt threatened by your success in any way. Maybe he was afraid that you would take his job someday, and so he eliminates all those that jeopardize that! Just a thought.....That should not be allowed! I guess I am forever trying to understand the bully mentality so that next time it happens to me Ican play psycho games with him or her to stroke their ego. My first thought is to collect documentation, form a case, and sue. But you know, there are so many bullies out there! There is usually one in every job. Please let me know what you learn from your attorney. Thanks! Christi wrote: Queste... now I'm confused. My attorney did request my personnel file and Message: 5 Queste wrote: I know there is a statue of limitations on suing but its more like a year or something. check it out in your state.

Actually, the statute of limitations may vary depending upon your unique case. Bullying per se has no statute because we have no laws against bullying. However, when we can find an issue related to the bullying we may have some recourse. In my particular situation my employer breached my contract on points, violated my civil rights at least once, and violated my human rights on numerous occassions. Because of these breaches, the statute of limitations for me is 3 years. Jennifer Message: 6 check the net under employment law. it is Zimmerman v. Direct Federal. jja from nj Message: 7 a word on the females who refuse to help other women and who suck up to men: keep your eye on the goal. i left the female co-bully out of my complaint, and went after her source....she is nothing without him...less then nothing, because no one respects her even a little (for all the sucking) once he's finally gone, she's dirt under our shoes. julie from nj Message: 8 kathy-- have you tried VIOXX for you arthritis??it is the best. if you can't afford it, explain the situation to your doctor and maybe he can give you some samples. it's a miracle drug.. julie from nj Message: 9 Christi, Whenever I felt that I was bullied, I would write an email addressing the situation and I would always send it with a "read receipt" so that I can prove that the other party has read it. That proves that the exchange took place and that you tried to resolve it in a professional manner. And if any interaction takes place verbally, always right a feedback email to confirm what was said and being done about the incident. This is great proof!

This is great practice! Keep up the good work! Jennifer Message: 10 hi helpful ones, get this. i forwarded the personal bill to a friend of mine who has never had workplace issues because she is a wizard at remaining invisible, it is amazing how she gets along. anyway her response to reading them was to say it sounds like too much take and not enough give for a work environment where people are supposed to be team players. i am meeeting with her later this week and she is quite the debater in private. any words of wisdom? thanks queste Message: 11 Are there any low-cost lawyers out there? Can anyone give recommendations? In Orlando, Florida? wrote: CL-yes! save the originals...it is a perfect compliment to the organized Message: 12 Everyone- Not that I am trying to discourage anyone from fighting these things, but I want to be prepared if I go full swing. I hear that any lawsuit is not good for your career. Is this view from the people that are not on our side trying to intimidate us, or is their some truth to that? In other words, can other prospective employers find out easily that you have sued another company in the industry? I know they network and probably warn each other. If this is true, just wondered how to handle this. Thanks guys! Christi Message: 13 Hi Julie - No, I haven't tried it yet. As I stated, I will be picking up samples from the Dr.'s office tomorrow. He said he has some Vioxx or some Celebrex for me if I want to try either. Last night before going to bed, I was looking for some Imodium in the cupboard and found a bottle with 3 of my Lodine pills in it. I was so happy! I took one and in a matter of an hour was starting to feel some relief! This morning is better, I will take another one after I eat. I slept a bit later today. Both of my parents have had Vioxx and neither of them had any relief from it. I know that the lodine works well for me and has for years, so I am reluctant to change, but I really have no choice until I get this medical insurance! Hopefully that will happen this week! Thanks for the information! Kathy Message: 14 Thanks, Julie! I will keep them then. :)

My "superior" has already given out a few versions of his truth-- in writing, LOL! I hadn't thought about the written stuff in a long time. I' ll have to go back and dig that stuff out just to refresh my memory of the inconsistencies in his story, but I remember it was pretty funny. Even the wimpy rep was laughing at Creepy's response to my initial grievance and how transparent it is. It's the one document I was able to get from the union right after I filed the complaint. I don't think the transparency will show to a jury because he went on for PAGES about it(!), but I've been saying all along to administrators and the union rep that anyone with an IQ of 70 can tell from the timing of events ALONE that what he did was retaliatory. Creepy's been trying to say I filed a bogus complaint, I had been insubordinate that day and I am a bad employee who needs to be reminded how to do my job. Now, putting myself in the shoes of an incompetent employee on the verge of discipline, why on EARTH would I call attention to myself by complaining about my boss after I had been insubordinate? I don't think it takes a genius to see the holes in that line of reasoning either. I've been wanting a full explanation of WHY that makes sense to our administrators. Now that I have an eye witness to prove he blew up and I wasn't being insubordinate, that theory looks even more ridiculous. The witness saw a key point. She told several others that she heard me tell him I will be there in a minute and he blew up, yelling at me about how I was going with him RIGHT THEN and he started "slamming" (her word) things. She said I hadn 't been insubordinate at all and it freaked HER out (and she didn't see the worst of the incident). She reported it to supervision at the time. I don' t know her well at all, but I spoke with her when I heard about what she saw. She is willing to testify to it. With that witness, the witnesses who saw me come out of the room crying and then pull myself together and GO BACK (!), testimony from coworkers who have gotten help from me when they didn't know how to do things or how to handle situations, a look at my current stats, a little research into documents and my last yearly review, the theory that I am an incompetent employee or was insubordinate is dead in the water. Creepy is going to look horrible on the stand. I don't think he could be wanting to push this forward. Believe it or not, I feel sorry for him. He' s as much a pawn in administration's power play as I am at this point. But, he brought it on himself. I have to remember that. CL CL-yes! save the originals...it is a perfect compliment to the organized notes. like i said, the attorney who investigated in my case, was impressed, Message: 15 Hey Julie, I think when women suck up to the bully men and don't help other women this probably means: 1. The woman is so afraid of losing her job that she goes along with the bully. This is exactly what the bully plays on. Everyone is scared. No one wants to rock the boat. It is time we stood up! As soon as employers are made aware that bullying is not tolerated and this is enforced, you will probably see more females feeling confident that they can't get the boot if they don't side with the bully. 2. They are also jealous of your successes (perhaps like the bully is), and she considers it easier to move up if you are out of the way anyway!

Just a thought! Christi wrote: a word on the females who refuse to help other women and who suck up to men: keep your eye on the goal. i left the female co-bully out of my complaint, and went after her source....she is nothing without him...less then nothing, because no one respects her even a little (for all the sucking) once he's finally gone, she's dirt under our shoes. julie from nj Message: 16 Hi Julie, Thank you for supporting my decision to go to management. I hope it does more good than harm. I am not in the private sector, but our managers are not elected and are not under scrutiny. That's why I feel strongly at this point that I would like what happened to be made known to the highest up over us. At some point, someone will care about how the public views them. The local steward's class action thing will accomplish that, I think. It's on its way to arbitration. I've gone over my rep's head a few times already, LOL! His boss always says nice things when I talk with him, but he really hasn't accomplished much regarding the status of my grievance yet. I even requested a different rep at one point, saying I don't' think we communicate well. He said my rep had to also want a change. Apparently, my rep wants to hang on to this thing. I wonder why. Perhaps he doesn't want his peers to see how he has screwed things up? Anyway, I phoned that supervisor again after the conversation last week. I spoke with him Wednesday afternoon and haven't heard more from him or the rep. I'm thinking of writing an email this time (I haven't a good printer at home) and asking him to clarify in writing what is going to happen next, when it's going to happen and why. I could write it to the rep and cc the supervisor. That might be the best way to go about it. What do you think? CL CL-over all, i think you are in good shape here! you are one step further than i, (with the civil rights claim) and you have the sexual harrassment to fall back on if you have to. is your employer in the public or private sector? i think that public employees (i am one) have an edge in the sense that polititicans are always worried about the way things look. and also they are on limited terms, and may not always be around. private on the other hand, is not under the scrunity of the taxpaying public. your union rep does not sound as if he is doing his job. i now understand why you took the shot and went to management. they have to know by now that he is lazy. i don't think it was a bad thing to do, in retropect. at least they know that you are smart enough to try and straighten things out yourself, and feel (when they are a little worn down, and put their egos aside) that they can make a deal with you (and civil rights, or whomever represents you at any given time) and with any luck, that will be it. in the meantime, it wouldn't hurt to try and keep your union honest. what would you think about going over your reps head? too risky? keep me posted.regards, julie from nj Message: 17 Queste get this. i forwarded the personal bill to a friend of mine who has never had workplace issues This is the key to her reaction. She's never been through this. To someone who hasn't experienced these type of workplace issues it's easy to "blame the target(s)". Many people are in denial of our issue and quite frankly, if it hadn't happened to me, I probably wouldn't believe it either. because she is a wizard at remaining invisible, it is amazing how she gets along. Translate this to she's in denial. anyway her response to reading them was to say it sounds like too much take and not enough give for a work environment where people are supposed to be team players. Targets are very much team players. See the target profile at: http://www.successunlimited.co.uk/bully/bully.htm#Target_profile

i am meeeting with her later this week and she is quite the debater in private. any words of wisdom?

Avoid this sort of debating. Give her the information she needs to educate herself (books, websites, etc). Jennifer Message: 18 I hear that any lawsuit is not good for your career. Is this view from the people that are not on our side trying to intimidate us, or is their some truth to that? < Christi: I used to work as a part of a career counseling staff and a recruiter. If an employer discovers that you have filed a work related lawsuit, they will think twice about hiring you. Its true. With a large company, a high profile lawsuit will go a long way in getting them to settle out of court to avoid the publicity. That could be good news. The bad news is that if you are in a moderately small to medium city, it could prohibit you from good jobs. Employers seem to think that all lawsuits are filed by those of us who are out to make a quick buck. Vindication and justice for mistreatment never occurred to them! Debbie Message: 19 Any time, Christi! ;) That's just one of the great things about this group-getting feedback about these things. I am looking forward to you doing the same for me someday! CL p.s. I didn't "put you in [your] place". You're giving me way too much credit. You knew it already! You said you were thinking twice as you wrote it. Sometimes we need feedback from others to get a better handle on why something we were thinking just doesn't feel quite right. ednchris wrote: Hey CL-You are sooooo right! When I wrote that about stroking the bully's ego, it occurred to me that my thinking is exactly what makes me a vulnerable target. These bullies do indeed have insecurity problems, but I don't think it helps to feed the ego at the expense of our own development on the job. Thanks for waking me up and putting me in my place. I need you guys!! Christi

C L wrote: I feel a need to comment on this. When it comes to stroking your bully's ego, one needs to be very careful if you are female and your bully is male. The bully might think you are interested in stroking more than his ego. I'm very serious about that. I played office politics and was very complimentary to my supervisor at one time. I'm not sure how much it had to do with him going off the deep end the day of the incident, but the circumstances suggest it certainly didn't help that I had told him often what a good supervisor and nice guy he was. It's been on my mind lately as I have had more going on with my case again that there is one or two added components of harm in sexual type harassment. It has a personal aspect to it and, as would be true in racial harassment/discrimination as well, there is the feeling of having been lumped in with a group perceived by "good old boys" as "less than". Bullying behavior is damaging enough and there needs to be tough laws against it, but when if the bullying includes these other components, it just makes it that much more difficult to deal with. It's something to avoid at all costs. Instincts guide us some, but I will be very careful whose ego I stroke in the future. If I don't know the person's behavior patterns very well or if the person's behavior toward me gives me the creeps instinctively, I will not be handing out compliments. Just a thought, CL Hey Debbie- You sound like an awesome employee. I wonder if he felt threatened Message: 20 Hi Christi - How do you send a Read Receipt? Please excuse my ignorance of computers! But I am willing to learn and have already learned a great deal here at Nineveh thanks to the help of all my great friends! Thanks. Kathy Message: 21 I'm trying to keep her out of my complaint, but she keeps putting herself in. I do (or did) respect her a great deal, but that respect is slipping fast. She's a very together, intelligent woman-who I would like to be "when I grow up", so to speak. The thing is, she is in a very vulnerable position right now and I would like to not always have to deal with white men in upper supervision, but she screwed up big time. She was one of two supervisors who came over to my desk when I left the room to get a hole punch and broke down crying as soon as I got away from the room. I was trying to tell them what happened, but I was bawling and I have excused them from responsibility by saying maybe I didn't make myself clear. Honestly, I DO think I made myself clear enough that they should have intervened. SHE even acknowledged (back when she first was supportive) that she knew something was very wrong and should have intervened. Neither stepped up to the plate to help, so I went BACK into that room as soon as I pulled myself together. I was terrified of what the creep might do at that point, but I didn't know what else to do and I just plain wasn't thinking very clearly any more, so I went. We have a Zero Tolerance policy regarding threatening and irrational behavior toward any staff by anyone. According to that policy, both of those supervisors should have intervened and reported what I said to upper management. Neither of them did, and neither did a third supervisor who the witness told about it. Incredible, huh? I think it boils down to fear. The first line supervisors have no power whatsoever and no union either. Her promotion had just been announced when the incident occurred. I think maybe part of the reason she wants me to drop this is she has now seen how obstinate upper management is being and her neck is on the line if this goes forward. I'm willing to testify, however, that 1st line supervision may have chosen not to intervene because of their own fears. CL a word on the females who refuse to help other women and who suck up to men: Message: 22 Hi CL: You have a sense of humor......and you're welcome for the posting. Regards, Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations Message: 23

I would say to your friend that it's a bill of RIGHTS (as opposed to a statement of "rights and responsibilities") for ALL team members. The other side of any bill of rights is that one must reciprocate. I hope this helps, CL hi helpful ones, get this. i forwarded the personal bill to a friend of mine who has Message: 24 In a message dated 11/12/01 1:40:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: << Thank you so much for taking the time to create this very helpful list, as well as telling something about yourself and your credentials. I have already forwarded it to several professionals who will benefit from it. I am still trying to find a therapist with competency in this area, and have a new Dr. who is trying to assist me. I think your material may help. Gerriann Hi Gerriann: You're welcome. I started to develop it in June, before my presentations at the International Congress of Logotherapy, so that in addition to my talks they could have on hand a list of resources should they meet up with this phenomenon in their work. All people in attendance were professionals, ranging from psychiatrists, psychologists, teachers, lawyers, other types of doctors. It would be good to give it to your new doctor, or any lawyer, so that they can at least look at the websites. Most professionals do not want to take the time to investigate new things, yet it's there for them to view. Best regards,

Susan Institute For Dignity In The Workplace . . . . .Rehumanizing Work Organizations Message: 25 Hi CL - I wanted to add my comments here....just a few thoughts....first of all just because you compliment someone, or say you admire the job they do does not give them license to act in a sexual way towards anyone! Being kind is not a gender thing! My feelings on Debbie's case are...Were all the other High achievers Male...if so, maybe the reason they didn't want you to get to that level where you would be taking that yearly trip with them has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with what goes on during that Trip! Also, I can't help think of this as being "Good OLE Boys Territory" I know we have come very far in this regard, but not far enough! There are still many men out there that believe a woman has her place and how dare she show us how it's done! That is a fact! Also those that still feel you have to play by there rules, or you don't play...expecting certain little favors, and/or stroking of the ego if you are to be accepted! It still happens! The sad part is, I have also been a witness to the female who uses her looks, etc., to move ahead with these bosses...playing there game every step of the way....Sooooo sickening! I feel we will be combating this for many years to come! We need to concentrate on the laws that are being written, find honest, trustworthy people as our politicians and remove them from office swiftly when they change there allegiances! We need to stand together and send a STRONG message! There will always be powerful companies and bullies, but they will be less effective the more we are proactive and keep these issues in the forefront! I'll be stepping off my soapbox now! Thank you! Kathy

Dear All, Sadly, some of your warnings to me about possible problems in facing my bully have come true - please don't say "I told you so"! The one thing my bully and I would now agree on is that we are both angry at the way the situation has been dealt with centrally. We may have different reasons for being angry, but essentially the problem for both of us is the incompetence of our powers that be. It was arranged that I should meet the bully, accompanied by a high ranking officer of the denomination. That meeting took place last Thursday. Some time ago I had been assured that there would have been a prior conversation with the bully about a spectrum of complaint and concerns about his leadership style and relationship to various people in the work setting. I had begun to doubt, before I met him, as to whether such a prior meeting had taken place, but did not feel in a position to press any further than I already had for information about that, nor for assurances that it had happened. With the benefit of hindsight I should probably have asked for the original assurances in writing. In the event, it seems that the only prior conversation was a brief one on the phone to arrange the meeting with me, in which the bully was told there was a woman minister with a relationship issue to put to him; that she was not the only one; and that not all those with a problem were ! women. At the end of that conversation, having been pressed, the bully was told my name. I would have thought that he would then have had some idea as to what it might be about, but apparently said that he hadn't a clue. He pressed for hints as to the nature of the problem, but was given none. I was quite O.K. about him knowing who he would be meeting, but felt it was difficult to give a "hint" which wouldn't lead to mis-understanding. When we met, I was amazingly composed throughout the meeting BUT the officer who came to "mediate" gave no lead in, apart from a brief prayer. He simply said the meeting was to enable me to say something to the bully, and passed straight over to me to say my bit. I had hoped for, and expected, just a short introduction, which if properly prepared could have been supportive to both of us. I had prepared a written statement (to be sure I wasn't manipulated or intimidated in any way), which I read in its entirety. After a long silence and a few brief questions and comments, the bully insisted that the meeting be ended, as this had been sprung on him with no preparation and he needed time to consider things. Given the lack of preparation before our meeting or at it, I did have quite a bit of sympathy for that stance. In the little bit that the bully did say he denied, counter-attacked and claimed he was the victim - all in the matter of a couple of sentences! I left feeling encouraged that I had been able to speak clearly and without getting emotional; but was numb and then angry. I could see that, largely because of the lack of context-setting in a previous meeting with him by the denominational officers, all the ingredients were now there for what we had hoped to avoid - ie. a personalised conflict between the bully and myself, when really there are a number of other targets and a general concern about his behaviour. I have since written a letter to the person who came down to meet us, saying how I'm feeling as a result and pointing out how they have let me down. He should have received that this morning. I wait for a reaction. In the meantime, I continue to be very very thankful for the continuing support of a colleague, who is the only person who really understands since she has both observed the way I have been treated and has suffered herself. I also now have another friend a phone-call away - someone who is now retired, cannot get involved in any way publicly about all this (for professional and personal reasons), but is more than happy to be a "shoulder to cry on" behind the scenes, realising, as he said himself "Who else have you got!" It may be that my bully will push me towards making a formal complaint (probably in the belief that I wouldn't do it!). My colleague is considering where she would come into things if he does that - whether we would enter a joint complaint, or whether she would prefer to come in as a witness later. Again for professional reasons she has to be very careful which way she goes, but has promised not to desert me. Since everyone else who knows has very good reason to keep a distance from it all, I don't know where I'd be without her. My husband is privately very supportive, but doesn't believe in us getting involved in one another's professional lives. However, he does occasionally make very helpful and wise suggestions for courses of action. The only positives at present are that my bully did at least make an undertaking not to attempt to have any one to one meeting with me from now on ("for my own safety"); and that having told him how I feel because of his behaviour, I do feel a little better - more confident somehow, as though I'm actually standing on my own feet now instead of "lying down" - and that in spite of huge apprehension about what might happen next. I'm sure that a large part of my ability to speak so clearly to him on the day was a clear conviction that I was not alone - for months now I have had repeated assurances of God's protection, and that He is with me in it all. Thanks for reading all of this rambling. Best wishes to all, wherever you are and whatever you're doing. Selina.