Subject: Re: logic
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:16:00 +0800
From: Nigel Mitchell <>
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian

Hi, Greg and Chris.

I have stepped back from this discussion for a few days to think about a
couple of things, but I will return (although briefly before I am away
for
three weeks starting next Thursday).

Chris:
>> All I am trying for now to say is that God gets to say who
>> is and isn't a Christian and His Word contains the only definition
>> that counts.  As to what that is, we need to go to the scriptures to
>> find out.

First, you need to define what a "Christian" is, since that word only
occurs
twice in the Bible, and neither gives a definition.
I suspect that most people would agree that "Christian" can be used
interchangeably with "Disciple of Christ" and "one who is saved", so
here are
some passages from the Bible which come close to giving us a definition.

e.g.
John 13:34-35
I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have
loved
you, you also should love one another.   By this everyone will know that
you
are my disciples, if you have love for one another.

Acts 2:21
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:9-13
If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your
heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For one believes
with
the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so
is
saved.  The scripture says, ÒNo one who believes in him will be put to
shame.Ó For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord
is
Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him.  For, ÒEveryone who
calls
on the name of the Lord shall be saved.Ó

1 Timothy 2:1-5
I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be
made
for everyone, for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we
may
lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity  This is
right
and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,  _who desires everyone
to
be saved_ and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one
God;
there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus,
himself...

I suspect that by now you have realised that all the definitions of "Who
is a
Christian" in the Bible are much "too liberal" for many of the people
who
post on these newsgroups.

Some people are fond of quoting Acts 2:38 as a definitive statement of
"who
is a Christian". If we look at the verse in context, I suspect that we
could
all agree on it:

Acts 2:38-42
Peter said, ÒRepent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of
Jesus
Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift
of
the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you, for your children, and for
all
who are far away, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him.Ó  And he
testified with many other arguments and exhorted them, saying, ÒSave
yourselves from this corrupt generation.Ó  So those who welcomed his
message
were baptized, and that day about three thousand persons were added.
They
devoted themselves to the apostlesÕ teaching and fellowship, to the
breaking
of bread and the prayers.

Note that, if we take the passage at face value (which you may be
unwilling
to do), the offer of salvation explititly includes children, a vast
crowd
responded to the message (hardly a 'narrow gate'), and those who
responded to
the Gospel message devoted themselves to the Apostles' teaching, to
p[rayer,
and to the breaking of the bread (i.e. the sacrament of the Eucharist).



Greg:
> What then is the Bible verse you bring forward as the "definitive'
> definition of a Christian? Please supply same.

Greg, you refused to answer this question when I asked it of you last
week,
so why do you expect Chris to answer it now.

Chris:
>> So you keep saying.  I keep saying that the Bible is the authority,
>> and not history, which is hard to verify and easy to interpret/argue
>> over.

Greg:
> Bible IS history dude. Duh. Inspired history as God worked in it,
> inspired as God spoke in it, but still history, in fact inspired
> history.

I think Chris is closer to the mark here. The Bible is not particularly
useful as History in many places. It is Scripture, which was written to
pass
on the faith of the authors, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit,
'that we
may believe' (John 20:30-31). The authority of the Bible comes from the
Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit; not from it's historical
veracity or lack thereof.

cheers

N+