Christian Relationships

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Christian Relationships

By Rowland Croucher and others ⋅ January 5, 2003 ⋅ Post a comment
Subject: Re: Christian relationships
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 15:17:44 +0800
From: "Nigel Mitchell" <>
Organization: St George
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian

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Hi, Darren.

Darren:

>>> First, our discussion has left its original context of homosexual
>>> relations/sex and has drawn upon the wider issue of a Christian response
>>> to sin (general). 

Nigel: 

>> Well, that would change my attitude entirely. I was talking about
>> homosexual relations/sex, and I have made the point repeatedly that as I
>> understand and use the term, homosexual relations/sex is not intrinsucally
>> sinful, and heterosexual relations/sex, even within marriage, can be
>> sinful. 

Darren:

> G’day Nigel,
> How so? The same biblical principles apply. Or are there various levels of
> obedience for those of diff orientations? 

No. I think the same principles should apply. Sexual sin should be seen as no more or
less "sinful" than covetousness. 

How do you deal with greedy people in your congregation?

If someone asked you to pray for (or even Bless) their business, would you do it?

>> Can you prove that homosexual relations/sex is "sinful" without making the
>> NT into a law? 

> First the Bible is the inspired word of God. Second it is God’s revealed
> will for us. Third you know the various passages that condemn homosexual sex 

> as sinful (Rom1; 1Cor 6) 

> Now are you suggesting that we ought not obey God’s will for us? Please
> explain your position. 

You seem to be arguing that the purpose of Christianity is to obey God’s Law.

Is that what you think?

I do not disagree with the expression "the Bible is the inspired word of
God", but I suspect I understand those words differently from you. The Bible
describes and records the encounter of the Jews and early Christians with God, what they
believed and how they lived out their faith. It is an abuse of the Bible to make it into a
Law that must be obeyed. 

Do you think that we are allowed to read the Bible with intelligence, and in the light
of our experience and knowledge from other sources? Because I am convinced that the
condemnations of homosexuality found in the NT are cultural expressions not unlike the
command that women should cover their heads and men should not in worship (1 Cor 11).

>> I am asking where Jesus gives us an example of what you are suggesting. 

> The Bible, God’s Word gives us a plethora of examples. There is no
> distinction in authority between what is recorded in the gospels & what is
> written in the epistles. You insist in pitting Paul against Jesus. What is
> your justification for such a terrible practice? 

I am not pitting Jesus against Paul.

I am saying that in John 8 Jesus gives us an excellent example of how we should respond
when people are persecuted for what is percieved to be sexual sin. I am sure that Jesus
would not have acted any differently if instead of an adulterous woman the story had been
about a homosexual man.

It is you that are tellijng me that I cannot act as Jesus did, because Paul says so.

>>> BTW, Nigel how do you maintain your spiritual & intellectual integrity
>>> (I’m not doubting it, just seeking an explanation) when you read the
>>> various Pauline condemnation of certain behaviours /acts? How do you deal
>>> with these texts? 

>> Easy. I am saved by grace, through faith. Not by making the NT into a Law. 

> In other words you pick & choose - a recipe for disaster and a sure way to
> grieve the Holy Spirit. Now, could you please elucidate further on how you
> deal with Pauline passages you obviously disagree with, do you just ignore
> them? 

As I said above, I try to read the Bible with intelligence, discerning what is a Gospel
value and what is a culturally conditioned guideline.

>>> Furthermore, I have had my NG behaviour condemned as sinful &
>>> inappropriate (as most of us have) without being condemned as a person.
>>> I condemn the behaviour of my three children on various occasions I seek
>>> to train & admonish them in the Lord - but I don not condemn them. the Lord
>>> disciplines us because of our condemned behaviour but we still remain
>>> justified as people. 

> I take it you can now see the diff between person & behaviour! 

I know that in the case of homosexuality in particular, you cannot condemn the one
without condemning the other also.

>>>> Do you think that homosexual people choose to be homosexual? 

>>> Not in the sense that they had no orientation and just chose to have
>>> homosexual relations. However, they are not programmed that way, and they
>>> can change their orientation if they desire to. I am more than familiar
>>> with current positions & none believe that homosexual orientation is
>>> purely genetic. 

>> So, at the risk of sounding like Andy, when, how and why did you choose to
>> be heterosexual? 

> You are and as you know I don’t do NSR. 

I am not Andy.

If you think that heterosexuality is a free choice, when did you choose and why?

>>> Furthermore, the real biblical questions is, "are we responsible moral
>>> beings who shall give an account for their actions?" the answer is an
>>> unequivocal yes. We all are. The Bible is more than clear on this issue. 

>> I know many homosexual Christians whose moral life, charity, love and
>> faith is exemplary. I also know many heterosexual Christians whose lives
>> are not nearly so admirable. And of course there are contrary examples in
>> both cases. 

> You have side stepped the real issue. God through his word has condemn
> homosexual sex as sinful. If X engages in such behaviour as a moral being he
> is accountable. 

And what is your response?

This is where the rubber hits the road.

When Gay people suffer persecution and discrimination, do you

a) remain silent

b) join in the persecution and discrimination

c) act as Jesus did in Acts 8?

>> What this comes back to is, do you think homosexuality is sinful because
>> it contravenes the Law, or do you think it contravenes the fundamental
>> principle of love of god and neighbour? 

> It contravenes creation, holiness and grieves the Holy Spirit. How can you
> justify it on the basis of love - it is not love for God because God has
> already said it is sinful. So again how can you justify disobedience to
> God’s revealed will as love for Him? If we take your selective usage of
> Scripture could we not justify any sexual sin? 

What is sexual sin? I believe that sexual sin is sexual activity which is unloving,
abusive and harmful to either party. But what is your definition?

cheers

-- 

N+

Nigel B. Mitchell