Subject: Re: "The True Israel", We Are Abraham's Sons!
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 03:33:28 GMT
From:  (Nigel B. Mitchell)
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian

On Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:47:29 GMT, 
(St.Athanasius) wrote:

>  I will here give account for my faith as Les
>has asked. 

This is not an account of your faith - it is a damnation of Les'
faith, informed by ignorance and prejudice.

>May the God of Abraham look upon us and bless us and
>forgive us our many and manifold sins. 

If you sincerely meant that, you would not write such rubbish.

>1) Where would Jesus prefer to pray?
>
>           This statement has its own basic assumptions that underpin
>it which I must deal with as well. You as a Jew state that Jesus was a
>man and nothing more. Thus you speak here now as the pentecostals do
>when they refer to Jesus this and Jesus that. As if Jesus was walking
>around the earth as He did in the flesh 2000 years ago. 

Jesus was a man. He did pray in the synagogue. His ministry was
almost entirely with and to the Jewish people. 

>           This belief is itself heretical as it does not recognize
>the Nature of Christ.

It is supremely arrogant to label 'heretical' the beliefs of
another religion. It is not possible to have a discussion with a
member of another religion from the starting point that the very
beliefs which divide us are 'heretical'. 

> As St Peter said on the day of Pentecost to the
>stiff necked Jews that this Jesus (who you talk of as a man) God has
>raised up and has been exalted to the right hand of God (His Power and
>authority). Also St Peter said, " Therefore let all the house of
>Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you
>crucified, both Lord and Christ."  Notice that now we refer to 'Jesus'
>as Jesus Christ, or Our Lord Jesus Christ, of Christ Jesus etc. He is
>not 'Jesus' as if He is no different to anyone else. He has titles
>given to Him by the Father and Christians do well to use these terms
>for their Lord, and Jews do well to learn the lesson of the Holy
>Spirit through St Peter on the Day of Pentecost.               

Peter was a Jew, talking to a crowd of Jews. At that time, most
of the Christians were also Jews. 

>     Therefore Les, I answer your incorrect assumption this way, Jesus
>Christ our Lord, being very God of very God, Light of Light, Begotten
>not made, True God of True God Himself worships every day IN HIS
>people as He has willed. This is the unification of His Nature with
>ours. Therefore your question is answered already by Christ when
>speaking to the Father said, "I will be in them, as I am in You, and
>we shall be One as You and I are One." This is a profound mystery that
>only faith can grasp.

This is a profound nonsense that only arrogance could utter.

>2) The Orthodox Church is Idolatrous.

>From an Orthodox perspective, the Orthodox Church is not
idolatrous. What a surprise.

<snip>

>5) Your Synagogue.
>
>         I note that the Lord Jesus Christ speaking of your synagogues
>referred to them as Synagogues of Satan, and those who say "They are
>Jews but are not!".  

These expressions appear in the apocalyptic vision of John (the
book of Revelation). Insofar as they can be specifically applied
at all, surely they refer to corrupt churches/ synagogues, not to
ALL synagogues. In the same way, the criticism of 'the Jews' in
the writings of the Evangelists and Paul do not apply to all
Jews.

>Therefore to answer your question, Jesus the
>Christ our Lord would never now enter a Jewish place of worship and
>Christians are forbidden to pray with Jews or have any joint religious
>service with them. 

When, and by whom, was this prohibition made. Peter, Paul and the
other evangelists in the NT worshipped in synagogues. It was at
least 300 years after the time of Jesus before Jews and
Christians stopped worshipping together, mainly due to the foul-
mouthed John Chrysostom and his ilk.

>You are cast away from the Covenant until you
>accept Christ Jesus as your Messiah, until then you are willingly and
>knowingly reprobate. The Jew shall not be saved if he dies in his
>state of reprobation, the Holy Mount of God, The Holy Zion, the New
>Jerusalem is for those who have entered the eternal and binding
>Covenant of Christ. 

How can a Jew be cast away from the Covenant? Is God so faithless
that he would deny his own children?

>6) The Five Books of Moses as your most sacred item!
>
>        Indeed! You have the Law and do not understand it. You deny
>your prophets, you deny Moses and you deny the Lord God Himself. Your
>sacred item is your reason and hardness of heart in rejecting that
>which has been fulfilled. You mock God when you hold His Law in
>reverence, yet cast out the Father's Son from the vineyard and kill
>Him outside the City. Your most sacred item is your bloodline...

What rot!
The Jews do not deny the prophets, Moses, or the Lord. They study
the Law, and keep his covenant.
You mock God when you hold his Law in reverence, and say such
dreadful things about his beloved children.


>Now Les, I have had a go at attempting to answer you. Please may you
>answer the following:

This is where Greg's post moves from the merely ignorant to the
truly evil. Most of this junk comes from the "Protocols of the
elders of Sion" and other similar vile publications. I fail to
see how making a statement about someone's religion and
challenging them to disprove it does any good whatsoever.

>Did Jewish practice during the middle ages include the marrying and
>giving in marriage of three to six year old girls?

Christian practice certainly did, especially amongst royalty and
the aristocracy. I don't know about Jewish practise at the time.
What is your point?

>Does Jewish Rabbinic tradition teach that un-natural sexual
>intercourse (sodomy) with a woman not ones wife does not constitute
>adultery because the act was not sexual intercourse?

What does Christian tradition have to say on the subject? Why do
you raise this question? Is it an issue in your life?

>Does Jewish Rabbinic Tradition teach that the leaving of a man in a
>pit to starve to death is not in fact murder?

What does Christian tradition have to say on the subject? Why do
you raise this question? Is it an issue in your life?

>Does Jewish Rabbinic Tradition teach that gentiles (goi) are not human
>and may be treated like animals?

No.

>Does Jewish Rabbinic Tradition teach that Gentiles have no legal
>rights and may not bring a case against a Jew in a Jewish court?

No

>Does Jewish Rabbinic Tradition teach you a Jewish man to pray
>daily.."I thank you God that you did not make me an animal or a
>woman.?

One version of the daily benedictions contains a prayer which may
mean this. Do you wish that you had been created an animal or a
woman? What is your point?

>Does Jewish Rabbinic Teaching teach you that sexual intercourse with a
>goi woman is not adultery as they are not human?

No.

>Does Jewish Rabbinic Teaching teach you that a Goi may be lied to
>openly without any guilt as they are not humans?

No
.
>If you answer 'yes', How then may I know anything you say is truthful?
>If you answer no, how may I know that you are not bringing this
>teaching to bare and thus deceiving me? How do I know that you are
>telling the truth at all?

Catch 22. You can use this logic to kid yourself that everything
a Jew tells you is suspect. 
Where does that leave you with Jesus the Jew?

>What does the inferring on certain gentiles the state of 'Righteous
>Gentile Award" mean in actuality?  (Hillary Clinton, Schlinder).

A Righteous Gentile is one whose deeds and manner of life have
honoured God, although they do not practise the Jewish religion.
You should aspire to such an award.

>Are Goi allowed to read the Babylonian Talmud?

Last time I read from it, there was a thunderstorm but I escaped
unharmed. Whew!

>What is the punishment for a Jew who teaches a Goi the Talmud or gives
>him one?

Eternal life???

>What does the Talmud teach about Jesus Christ the Lord of Heaven?
>
>Does it say blasphemies that are too disgusting to even write?

Nothing worse that what you have been saying about Jews.

>What about St Mary the holy Mother?
>
>Does it say horrible things that are too disgusting to repeat?

Nothing worse that what you have been saying about Jews.

>Why is it that the Jewish faith existed amongst the Romans who
>demanded sacrifice to idols, whilst the Christians were executed
>everywhere over the empire for their refusal to sacrifice to the
>idols?

Because Judaism was initially respected as a national religion,
and exempted from the parts of the Roman state religion that they
found abhorrent. Under different rulers, this practise varied,
and during the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE a
combination of factors including
- many gentiles being attracted to Judaism as proselytes and 'god
fearers'.
- Jewish civil disobedience and rebellion
- Christian evangelism, and the confusion of the Romans (and many
Christians and Jews) over whether Christians were entitled to the
same priveleges as Jews.

>Why is it that your own Historian Josephus even said of Christ "If it
>be even lawful to call Him a man", and praised St John The Baptist? 

_If_ Josephus wrote those words, it is a strange comment indeed.
My copy of Josephus contains a footnote saying that those words
were almost certainly added by a Christian copyist. I am
surprised the same footnote does not appear in your copy (or are
you quoting from anti- semitic propaganda without checking the
sources?)
 In any case, Josephus is not recognised by the Jews as a
spokesperson for their religious (or historical) opinions.

>Once you have given account of the above, I suggest we may go to the
>heart of the matter and discuss from the Holy Scriptures the advent of
>Christ as the fulfilment of the Jewish Messiah. In this area I would
>like to focus on three major points.

It sounds like you have already made up your mind, so what do you
hope to gain from 'discussing' these things with Les?

>1) The Jewish Messiah had to come prior to AD 70 to fulfill the
>prophecies relating to Him.

Did they have a use-by date? Where is this recorded?

>2) That Jesus Christ fits all prophecies regarding the Messiah
>perfectly?

It would be surprising if they did not, given that the
Evangelists used the prophecies as a framework for telling his
story.

>3) That the Diaspora of the Jews removed any idea of tribal heritage
>and thus the Messiah having to come from the Tribe of Judah and the
>House of David may now never be fulfilled. 

You are projecting a partial and inaccurate understanding of the
Jewish expectation of Messiah onto (ancient and) modern Judaism.
It is hardly surprising that you come up with wrong conclusions,
when you start with wrong assumptions.

>The above points will show that the Jewish system of worship finished
>at 70 AD and that which calls itself Jewish religion now is not! 

All they show is that you do not understand Judaism. I can
reccomend some reading to help you with this if you like.

>It is
>only the remnants of Jewish heritage not religion. In fact Pharisaical
>tradition remained after the destruction of the Second Temple and took
>over and as such ran its natural course into the Babylonian Talmud, of
>which you realise I have quoted my above questions from.

I thought you said that Gentiles were forbidden to read the
Babylonian Talmud.

Did you wade through the Bavli all by yourself to cull these
gems, or did you find them on an anti-semitic website or
pamphlet? I challenge you to name your source.

>I am sure there is much more we have yet to say to each other.

Perhaps if you said less and listened more, you might give better
service to the God and Father of us all.

Cheers


N+

Nigel B. Mitchell