Subject: Re: Use of 'Lord's Prayer' in secular settings
Date: 20 Aug 1999 04:51:00 GMT
From: Chris Ho-Stuart <>
Organization: Queensland University of Technology, Australia
Newsgroups: aus.religion,aus.religion.christian,nz.soc.religion

[I have restored some context to the quoted text]

Nigel wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:41:11 +0800, Tigger wrote
> (in message < 9350
>):
> >
> >In aus.religion.christian Nigel Mitchell <  > wrote:
> >>In < >, "Tigger" wrote:
> >>
> >>> Two thousand years after Jesus walked the earth, there are
> >>> many competing religions. All claim to have the truth, and
> >>> most claim unique truth. Many make all sorts of claims about
> >>> life after death, creation, heaven/hell, the way to achieve
> >>> eternal happiness, etc. There is no way that we, as God made
> >>> us, can reliably distinguish between them.
> >>
> >> How hard have you tried?
> >
> > No, Nigel, I am not going to let you get away with claiming
> > that the only reason people don't find God is cos they don't
> > look hard enough. What about Andy? He was a good Christian for
> > years (14, I think). He thought he already knew God. How much
> > harder does a person have to try?
>
> OK, so you have tried hard, and you know exactly what you are
> rejecting, and why. Where is the problem in that?

I think there are two different issues here.

One is whether or not I, as one who does not believe in God or in
a special divine status for Jesus, should feel upset that others
believe that God has some kind of eternal bonanza awaiting them,
from which I am to be excluded.

It would be absurd for me to feel upset about this in any way. I
don't believe the eternal bonanza exists -- I don't consider it
even remotely plausible. So I do not consider myself excluded from
anything, and I take no more offence at beliefs about the eternal
bonanza than I do at beliefs about God.

The other matter is how do we react to an apparently intelligent
person believing ludicrous propositions. I think what Tigger may
be finding ludicrous here is simultaneous belief

(1) in an eternal destiny that completes and extends and perfects
our experience in this life,

(2) that attainment of this destiny is determined by belief or
faith in badly supported propositions

(3) that this set up was engineered by a supremely beneficent
being.

I certainly find this comically ludicrous. But rather than argue
the case, I'll try a little inspired but non-literal prose:
-----------------

[Scene. Large crystal sea, sapphire throne, awesome presence, large
book in graceful Gothic script, choirs in the background, billions
of trembling souls stretched out in the mother of all queues...]

God: Next.

Chris: Here, Sir.

God: OK, question one. Do you believe in God?

Chris: Duh! I do NOW, of course.

God: Not *right* now. This whole throne scene is just a metaphorical
dialog to illustrate a point. If you've read my books, you'll
know I'm heavily into obscure literary devices. That eternal
fire thing, for example. The fact of the matter is if you pass
this metaphorical dialog you do get eternal life, but if not
you'll just get oblivion. My servant Nigel has explained it
all previously, so people have no excuse for being confused
on this point.

Chris: Oh. In that case, no I don't believe in God.

God: Pity. That's oblivion for you. But stick around a bit first.
We'll play out the dialog a bit longer for different people.

Pretend you're Dien -- your Muslim friend from Monash.

Dien: Yes, I believe in God.

God: Good, good, good, .... Do you believe in Jesus?

Dien: Yes, I believe in Jesus.

God: Good, excellent, uh... wait.. you're a *Muslim*?

Dien: Of course. Where is Jesus, by the way? I saw some of the other
prophets in the third row of the choir...

God: Oh, I am sorry.... no, in fact the Christians were right after
all, Jesus is divine, is me, in fact. All the same thing from
different angles. I'm sure you've heard the trinity properly
explained to you? I definitely inspired someone with the precise
formulation of that doctrine; you're bound to have heard it,
and so you have no excuse: still oblivion for you. Try
pretending to be someone else...

Nigel: Yes, I believe in Jesus.

[God scrutinises a page of a very very large book]

God: Quite so, quite so; but there are still a few oddities here.
Do you believe in the virgin birth?

Nigel: You're kidding! Really?

God: Yes, indeed. Joseph was very decent about the whole thing. Mum
was perpetually virgin, and my brother James was really a cousin,
through Aunty Edith. I'm a jealous God, you know.

Nigel: Well, blow me down. I'm really quite surprised by that.

God: [peevishly] Well, I certainly arranged to have it all explained
to you quite plainly by a whole series of popes. You have no
excuse.

[more brightly] Still, all water under the bridge. I'm really
quite forgiving, and a few mistaken impressions on a non
salvation matter is not really a problem.

Nigel: [sigh of relief]

God: You were a leader in the church, I see. Did you let anyone else
know about your heretical opinions on the virgin birth?

Nigel: [somewhat taken aback] Well, yes.

God: Oops. That's rather more serious. Teaching false doctrine,
misusing your authority, lies, no, I'm sorry. Take that
rather ominous looking dark doorway to the left.

Nigel: [frantically] What about the oblivion?

God: I'm trying a new persona now as well. My servant Able has
explained it to you. It is not oblivion, but I avoid been
particularly clear about it. Enough to say that it is eternal
and you are going to find out what it is, first hand. Next.

Nigel: Wait. Can I be Able?

God: OK. Do you believe in the virgin birth?

Able: Yes.

God: Good, good. How about inerrancy of scripture? Global flood?
Supernatural miracles? Physical resurrection? Immaculate
conception of Mary? Reincarnation? Animal ancestry of humans
by evolution? Sinfulness of homosexuality?

Able: Uh... Yes, no, yes, yes, no, no, no, yes.

God: Quite good. Six out of eight; that is a passing grade. Great,
you escape the dreadful fate of eternal suffering in the lake
of fire.

Able: Wow. So it really was eternal suffering?

God: Oh yes. My servant Graeme explained it all very eloquently,
so you should have been quite clear about that. Anyhow, come
now to rest in eternal bliss.

Able: Where did Tigger end up?

God: Need you ask? But that is all done with now.

Able: Oh, I am sorry about that. I really had her best interests
at heart, and did my best to warn her...

God: I know, I know. Sad really. Anyhow, thanks to your good efforts
she knew the truth, and so she has no excuse. Cheer up. I find
after a few billion years one gets accustomed to the sound of
screams from the lake, and can really enjoy the bliss.

[Curtain]

[But with a frisson of horror, as the lights dim and just
before the curtain closes we note... were those *horns*
poking out through God's immaculate white hair?]
-----------------------------------

Cheers -- Chris