G'day all.

"Jas" < writes:

Perhaps you misunderstand me. [...] My point was that a person who struggles against (and successfully resists) the temptation of active homosexuality should be viewed favourably when applying to fill a ministry role.

I agree. The analogy I would draw is with that of a recovering alcoholic. (Note, there's another good analogy here: Nothing wrong with being an alcoholic, but alcohol abuse on the other hand...)

I can see a spectrum here wrt homosexuality and Christianity. I can think of five (oversimplified) attitudes that a homosexual person in the church can take, where I'll use the term "homosexual" to refer to someone who has homosexual orientation, and "practising homosexual" to refer to the obvious subset of homosexual people:

(1) I am a homosexual and God does not approve.

(2) I am a homosexual. God doesn't mind, but I should keep it quiet.

(3) I am a homosexual but it's okay so long as I am non-practising.

(4) I am a practising homosexual and God does not approve.

(5) I am a practising homosexual and God approves.

Of these, I consider (1) to be the worst, closely followed by (2).While God can indeed "undo" homosexual orientation, there are many people in category (1) have been extremely hurt by "healing" ministries, and I am glad that the UCA sexuality report noted this.

Category (2) is bad all round. There is nothing to be gained by not being open about something which is part of yourself. If any one thing comes out of the current bunfight within the Uniting Church on sexuality, an end to secrecy about sexual orientation should be it.

Category (4), if experienced at all, should be temporary. There's nothing worse than being uncomfortable about engaging in activity which you believe to be sinful, whatever that activity is.

We're left with a choice between (3) and (5) which are, roughly speaking, the two positions held by different members of the task group who wrote "Uniting Faith and Sexuality".

Unless, of course, someone else can come up with more options.

People who admitted to this sort of temptation among evangelical circles would be few and far between,

...and I think this is one of the great shames of evangelicalism, that we (I include myself as an evangelical who is a member of the Uniting Church) have not created an environment where openness on matters of sexual orientation is encouraged.

Cheers,
Andrew Bromage

From: (Nigel B. Mitchell)
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Lesbians and the Unitiing Church.
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997

On 17 Jul 1997 12:24:49 +1000, (Andrew Bromage) wrote:

- a thoughtful post including the following spectrum of possibilities:

(1) I am a homosexual and God does not approve.

2) I am a homosexual. God doesn't mind, but I should keep it quiet.

(3) I am a homosexual but it's okay so long as I am non-practising.

(4) I am a practising homosexual and God does not approve.

(5) I am a practising homosexual and God approves.

I think that there is another option - although you might say it was 2a, namely "I am a homosexual, but that is between me and my partner, and me and God - not anyone else's business at all."

Andrew used the analogy of alcoholism - but alcoholism has definite negative effects upon the person and society, and there is no incontrovertible evidence that homosexuality has those characteristics. I suspect that nudism might be a much better analogy - something which is morally neutral in and of itself, but nevertheless open to abuse, which may bring the person and those associated with them into disrepute, especially amongs the ignorant and uninformed, and which frankly I would not want to know, or imagine, about most of the clergy of my acquaintance.

Cheers
N+
Nigel Mitchell

From: (Andrew Bromage)
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Lesbians and the Unitiing Church.
Date: 18 Jul 1997

G'day, Nigel.

(Nigel B. Mitchell) writes:

I think that there is another option - although you might say it was 2a, namely "I am a homosexual, but that is between me and my partner, and me and God - not anyone else's business at all."

I'd put it at 4a. Or perhaps I'd add another axis.

Andrew used the analogy of alcoholism - but alcoholism has definite negative effects upon the person and society, and there is no incontrovertible evidence that homosexuality has those characteristics.

It depends what kind of evidence you're looking for. Spiritual effects can't be quantified scientifically. I think that the main effect of homosexual activity (apart from guilt and alienation, which are not caused by the activity itself but by an unloving community, or at least the perception of it) is that like any other sin it is a hinderance to a closer relationship with God.

So the issue is indeed between those directly involved and God. The question then becomes: So does God approve of homosexual activity or not? This is not the same question as "Does God love homosexual people?" or "Does God approve of homophobia?", the answers to both being extremely obvious.

I picked alcoholism because 1) Alcohol abuse is an example of a good gift being abused, 2) there's some evidence that some people are born with a predisposition towards it, and 3) alcoholism and alcohol abuse are not the same thing, but they are related.

I suspect that nudism might be a much better analogy - something which is morally neutral in and of itself, but nevertheless open to abuse, which may bring the person and those associated with them into disrepute, especially amongs the ignorant and uninformed, and which frankly I would not want to know, or imagine, about most of the clergy of my acquaintance.

I agree that there are probably better analogies than alcoholism. I picked it for its good features, not its bad ones. :-) However nudism doesn't work because nudist practice is not mentioned in Scripture (though those who follow a literal Eden story may have thoughts on it).

Probably a better analogy than both these is "coveting". I'm not talking about jealousy (an overtly destructive form of coveting). Simple coveting does not harm anyone... except the covetor and their relationship with God.

But in the end, any analogy will break down, because homosexual practice (like all sinful activity) has its own distinctions which make it different from anything else.

I would love it if God approved of homosexual practice. It would give us a few easy answers to some thorny questions. I don't fully understand why God spoke against homosexual activity so consistently throughout Scripture. I can't see anything inherently "wrong" with it from a worldly point of view.

Fortunately for us, God doesn't let us get away with a worldly point of view.

Cheers,
Andrew Bromage