Real Christians: Is Hitler In Heaven?

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Real Christians: Is Hitler In Heaven?

By Rowland Croucher and others ⋅ January 5, 2003 ⋅ Post a comment

Subject: Re: Hitler in Heaven?
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 22:15:14 -1000
From: “Rowland C. Croucher” <>
Organization: John Mark Ministries
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian,aus.religion

Peter B. West wrote:
>
> Aaron Dodd wrote:
> >
> >
> > Really? No evidence at all? Would you therefore care to explain this
> > quote?
> >
> > “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of
the
> > Almighty Creator: *by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting
for
> > the work of the Lord.*”
> >
> > Hitler most certainly was a believer.
>
> Are you wasted *all* the time?
>
> I suppose it was because Hiler was brought up a Catholic that he was
> such an admirer of Neitzsche? I suppose it was because he was such a
> strong Christian that he consulted his astrologers before he made any
> decisions. While this on the record from Hitler’s command of the war
> effort, there is not, as far as I am aware, any record of his *praying*
> before making his decisions.
>
> It seems that the only thing Hitler took from his Catholic upbringing
> was a his strong and strongly expressed opinion that he know how to
> “handle” (i.e. manipulate and control) the Catholic Church.

And just today I learned (from Matthew Fox’s autobiography) that both Hitler
and Goebells were Catholics and were never excommunicated from the Catholic
Church. Fox, moreover, claims that the Catholic Church expedited the secret
migration of many Nazis to Latin America (well known) and that the Vatican
is
actually run by a ‘German mafia’ headed by Ratzinger (who was a Nazi for
five
or six years in his youth). Can’t wait till I read my review of Fox’s book
(next week)…

Leslie Brown wrote:
>
> (Michael Kennedy) wrote in
> aus.religion.christian:
>
> >On 30 Dec 1997 07:14:29 GMT, (Aaron Dodd)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Graeme () wrote:
<>
>
> In that case then Michael, my I suggest that there are very, very few
> Christians in this world?
>
> I have a friend, studying to be a Christian minister in a Pentecostal
> church here in Melbourne, who informed me that he thinks that only 2%
> of Christians are really Christians.
>
> Now, how could I disagree with him after reading your post?

Yes, Les, you probably can – the other way (a Christian is someone who
professes to be one, but not all Christians are necessarily followers of
Jesus: get my point?). And you can disagree with his playing God in this
way:
according to Jesus one thing about the Great Judgment is certain: we’ll all
be
surprised…

> Les Brown

Leslie Brown wrote:

> My own personal thoughts are that hitler is to be found in neither
> heaven nor hell – he is still here. My son, 17, who is quite
> identifiably Jewish because he wear a “kippah” or skull-cap, was
> getting off a tram, when a woman of about 35 on the tram said to him
> “gas chamber, gas chamber”. This upset my son a little, but such
> events happen often enough.
>
> For my son, as for all Jews, hitler is still among you all
>
> hitler has not been judged yet because his influence has not ended.
>
> Les Brown.

… which is awful. BTW, Les, how do you teach your son to respond to taunts
like that?

Graeme wrote:

> Would you care to define a follower of Jesus? I really am interested
> in some of these definitions.

A follower of Jesus is someone who does in her/his world what Jesus did in
his
- and with similar consequences. For example, to follow Jesus (as distinct
from following, say, the Pharisees) is to be committed to social justice,
mercy, love – Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42). So a follower of Jesus will ‘cop
it’
from the right, which is not committed to social justice like this. To be a
follower of Jesus is to be childlike/trustful, so the left will have
problems
with this lack of sophistication…

IOW, it’s all about simplicity the other side of complexity rather than
simplicity this side of complexity or complexity the other side of
simplicity
(go get a cup of coffee unless you’re a SDA if it’s too late in the evening
for all that

Subject: Re: Real Christians (was Re: Hitler in Heaven?)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 18:39:03 -1000
From: “Rowland C. Croucher” <>
Organization: John Mark Ministries
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian,aus.religion

Michael Kennedy wrote:
>
> On Tue, 06 Jan 1998 15:07:26 -1000, “Rowland C. Croucher”
> <> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Yes, Les, you probably can – the other way (a Christian is someone who
> >professes to be one, but not all Christians are necessarily followers of
> >Jesus: get my point?). And you can disagree with his playing God in this
way:
> >according to Jesus one thing about the Great Judgment is certain: we’ll
all be
> >surprised…
> >
>
> I understand your logic, Rowland.
>
> But, have you ever thought, maybe you’ll be the one most surprised.

Sure, I’m comfortable with that… And you’d like to see that?
>
> God Bless,
>
> Michael.

Graeme wrote:
>
> “Rowland C. Croucher” <> wrote:
>
> >Graeme wrote:

> Thankyou Rowland. I missed your reply and am a bit late getting back
> on this. I wonder of you would mind defining for me your definition of
> a Christian. Thanks in advance.
> Graeme

For me, a Christian is someone who follows Jesus.

For a fundamentalist, a Christian is someone who agrees with a particular
process (receiving Jesus as your personal Saviour etc.) and a particular
doctrinal stance.

For most of the world a Christian is someone who was brought up in a
Christian
church/family. (For Christians, a Jew is someone ditto: we don’t usually
make
fine points about whether that person is a ‘good/orthodox’ Jew or not)…

For God, a Christian is… Now you answer that one!

Was Jesus a Christian? Doubt it. (Read my article on that on our website)…

Subject: Re: Hitler in Heaven?
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 21:41:07 -1000
From: “Rowland C. Croucher” <>
Organization: John Mark Ministries
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian,aus.religion

Theo Bekkers wrote:

> Hitler claimed to be a Christian and was purging the Jews for the glory of
> god. It is a bit late distancing him from Christianity now. The crusaders
> were Christians too, killing for god. The inquisitioners! Napoleon! Do you
> want to say that none of these people were Christians?

Probably – although God’s better at that than I am and can do it without my
help

> You can’t decide
> that people are not Christians because of what they’ve done.

Can’t you?

> No-one can positively say that Hitler was a Christian when he died. He was
> bought up as a Christian and never denied his faith. In fact, he appears
to
> have affirmed it in print.
>
> There are “bad” Christians too, Marcello.

Agreed.

Reminds me of a time when well-known Trade Union identity John Halfpenny and
I
had a public debate about Christianity vs Marxism (he was then an avowed
communist). We agreed before the debate that we would exclude Stalinism from
my script and he would exclude the Crusaders and the Inquisition from his,
on
the grounds that we wanted to talk about the essence of Christianity and
Marxism, rather than be sidetracked by historical ‘anomalies’. Quite a
pleasant evening. (And unlike another one I organized on the Middle East
crisis: we got a Rabbi and a Christian Arab together, and they didn’t stop
heckling each other all night. If you want to do that, have the thing on two
nights, and invite the Rabbi one time and the Arab/s the other!)

Subject: Re: Hitler in Heaven?
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:06:05 -1000
From: “Rowland C. Croucher” <>
Organization: John Mark Ministries
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian,aus.religion

Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Rowland C. Croucher <> wrote in article
> <34B7180>…
> > Theo Bekkers wrote:
> >
> > > You can’t decide
> > > that people are not Christians because of what they’ve done.
> >
> > Can’t you?
> >
> Not unless you want to deny the Crusaders, the inquisitioners, the witch
> hunters, and the Popes who condoned and encouraged them their
Christianity.

They’re one group calling themselves ‘Christians’. I do meet others who are
quite different…

Subject: Re: Hitler in Heaven?
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:44:56 -1000
From: “Rowland C. Croucher” <>
Organization: John Mark Ministries
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian,aus.religion

Michael Smith wrote:
>
> Marcelo Cantos wrote:
> >
> > (Barry O’Grady) writes:
<>
> Barry simply insults everything and says what is likely to cause the
> maximum offense. I doubt that he believes his anti-semitic taunts any
> more than he believes anything else.
>
> Barry is simply a nasty person who likes to hurt others.
>
> I trust that Les has more sense than to take offense from such an
> insignificant person.

No person lacks significance, not even Barry

My question is: because ‘hurt people hurt people’ what hurt Barry so much
that
he has to stoke up so much hate? If he was hurt by people calling themselves
Christians then we perhaps should address that.

People who hate don’t, in my experience, simply get to that position
philosophically.