(Christian Graus) wrote:

But there is ample evidence from the scriptures that new wine is a type of the Holy Spirit and old ( fermented ) wine a type of the old life, apart from scriptural evidence for Christians not drinking. At the least it has been generally accepted that a Christian desiring to test the boundaries might be allowed to drink with care not to offend others, which excludes alcoholic communion.

This is totally different from our being so arrogant as to rewrite the very meaning of a basic instruction from our Lord. gain, don't you and your congregation love God enough to do it the way you admit is the ideal ? What if God decided on a less than ideal salvation for you because it required less effort on His part ?

Let me put this simply.

If the last supper was a passover meal, then it is unthinkable that the wine used would be anything but fermented (alcoholic) wine. No Jew in the time of Jesus or since would even consider the possibility except in the most extreme circumstances. The bead would also have been unleavened bread. At the last supper, Jesus shared the wine and bread with his disciples and said "do this in memory of me".

For most of the Baptisms in the Bible we have no descriptions of how they were done, but when we do have a description it is in flowing water, eg a river or creek.

If we should follow the Biblical example of HOW to administer these sacraments as closely as possible, then only alcoholic wine and unleavened bread should be used for Communion, and only flowing (or what the Didache calls 'living' water) should be used for Baptism.

On the other hand, if it is important THAT we celebrate baptism and Communion, but the Church has authority to decide HOW (which is my opinion, and that of most Churches throughout history), then we may decide for pastoral or other reasons, or for convenience, that it is acceptable to use non- alcoholic wine and/or leavened bread for communion, and that it is acceptable to baptise in a still pool of water, or even to baptise by pouring water over the head and saying "I baptise you...".

What we cannot do with integrity is say that we must follow the Biblical model in respect of one sacrament, but we are free to change the other. That would make us hypocrites, would it not?

Cheers
N+
Nigel B. Mitchell
Goodness without wisdom
always accomplishes evil.