Graeme wrote:
>
> "Rowland C. Croucher" <> wrote:
>
> >Michael Kennedy wrote:
> ><>
> >> My advice - GET SOME RESPECT FOR GOD.
> >> And get a backbone, stand up straight and fight for the Lord's
> >> standards, and instructions to us.
>
> I wonder when someone is going to realise that baptism is merely
> identification in scripture.

I used to think that. But consider the following (from my little book GROW! Meditations and Prayers for New Christians:

Baptism is associated in the New Testament with a rich variety of meanings: the washing away of our sins (Acts 22:16); putting off the old life like soiled clothes, and putting on Christ, like a new, clean garment (Galatians 3:27, Ephesians 4:22-24); being buried and raised with Christ (Colossians 2:12). Baptism, like the waters in Noah's time, is linked with our salvation (1 Peter 3:21), so we, like him, should be godly in a corrupt and sinful world.

Baptism is the sign of the new covenant God makes with us, our children, and all that 'far away' (Acts 2:39, Colossians 2:11-12). It is an act of faith (often of real courage, too) before witnesses. It's a proclamation, a dramatisation of Christ's work for sinful humanity (Romans 6). Baptism means we are now owned by Christ (the words 'in the name' signify ownership) (Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48 etc.). Baptism is associated, too, with 'baptism in the Holy Spirit': two aspects of what Paul calls 'one baptism' (Ephesians 4:5; see also Titus 3:5, John 3:5, Luke 3:22, Acts 2:38, 1 Corinthians 12:13). Finally, baptism is the door into the church.

Richard Rose wrote:

> Rowland C. Croucher wrote:
<>
> > Beware the legalists who'll put heavy burdens on you (usually basing
> > their judgments on the Markan commission) and tell you you're not
> > 'Christian' if you're not baptised. The pharisees are still with us...
> >
> Although we don't perform any of the ceremonies (except marriage), we
> don't frown on anybody who feels the need to participate in any of the
> sacraments at any other Christian church (although we do have a >
> problem with holy communion - we don't drink alcohol:-).

Now's there's some honesty for you. Some other groups don't drink alcohol and then try to rationalise/biblicise their position by trying to make the wine in the Bible non-fermented. Talk about non-Jesuitical casuistry! (The Jesuits, by the way, enjoy their wine, as Jesus did :-)

> Richard R :-)
> Blood & Fire.

The Sallies might like to look at their slogan (as they've had to do in places like the former Soviet Union). Perhaps you could suggest a better one to your leaders :-) ?

Richard Rose wrote:

>
> I have been trying to reply to a thread that mentioned baptism as a
> 'command' of Jesus and have had little success so I'm posting this as a
> new thread.
> "Doug" <> wrote
> > Baptism was considered to be full immersion, as evidenced by John the
> > Baptist's baptisms.
> > There have been many books written about it, and I won't jump in to attempt
> > to confirm or deny the necessity, I simply don't know.
> > The Jews tended to do it in "living water" which was flowing water: a
> > river, or <presumably> the ocean.
>
> I know about baptism and why most churches do it, what I would like to
> know is where in the Bible does Jesus COMMAND it? As I understand,
> baptism is one of the sacrements (along with holy communion, marriage,
> etc), of which only marriage is observed (kept?) by my church (The
> Salvation Army), does this make us any less christian than any other
> church?

I would have thought Matthew 28:18-20 was clear enough.

Re the Salvation Army: my understanding is that the 'Sallies' didn't set out to be a church, but a 'mission' to the poor, and that the 'sacraments' as such didn't fit their mission. They've evolved into a church - hence the struggle with things like sacraments. So, no, the Salvation Army is not less 'Christian' than any other church - just different. And that's good.

Beware the legalists who'll put heavy burdens on you (usually basing their judgments on the Markan commission) and tell you you're not 'Christian' if you're not baptised. The pharisees are still with us...