From: "Rowland C. Croucher" <>
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian
Subject: Ordination...
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:45:29 -1000

Nigel wrote (on another subject - y'all know what :-)

>>Personally, the criteria I would use include - the authority of the
>>Church (eg in ordination or similar) ,

And Graeme (our Kiwi friend who doesn't like tongues) responded:
>
>I would treat that one with great care.
>

Nigel responded: What does that mean? 

Now me: Good question: but if we understand Graeme's Brethrenish stance
on most topics he's posted about, it's understandable... The Brethren
movement's key raison d'etre int he early days was to fight clericalism
in the Anglican Church... sorry, Church of England...

Nigel again: Ordination is the way most churches
recognise that a person has a call from God to preach, teach and
minister in the Church, and is usually preceded by academic study
and pastoral training to equip the person for those tasks. Not
every ordained person is a good teacher, and a person can be a
good teacher without being ordained, but in general I think that
ordination should be one of the indicators that a person is
likely to be a good teacher of Christianity.

And me again, in a rare contra-Nigel moment: I think what Denominations
do isn't ordination at all. It's accreditation. And that's O.K. But only
God 'ordains' - and God ordains _every_ Christian to ministry. You see,
I've got a thing about clericalism (and coincidentally, I was brought up
in the Brethren, but that's not the main reason for my stance). 

-- 

Shalom!  Rowland Croucher                     ()

         John Mark Ministries - resources for pastors/leaders         
      (Bookroom, library, and worldwide F.W.Boreham Trading Post)
WEBSITE  (1300 articles  1000+ links  4000+ visitors a day)  
                  http://jmm.aaa.net.au

From: "Rowland C. Croucher" <>
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Ordination...
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:19:39 -1000

Nigel B. Mitchell wrote:
> 
> I wrote:
> > Ordination is the way most churches
> >recognise that a person has a call from God to preach, teach and
> >minister in the Church, and is usually preceded by academic study
> >and pastoral training to equip the person for those tasks. Not
> >every ordained person is a good teacher, and a person can be a
> >good teacher without being ordained, but in general I think that
> >ordination should be one of the indicators that a person is
> >likely to be a good teacher of Christianity.
> >
> Rowland:
> >And me again, in a rare contra-Nigel moment: I think what Denominations
> >do isn't ordination at all. It's accreditation. And that's O.K. But only
> >God 'ordains' - and God ordains _every_ Christian to ministry. You see,
> >I've got a thing about clericalism (and coincidentally, I was brought up
> >in the Brethren, but that's not the main reason for my stance).
> 
> Hi, Rowland,
> If you read the first sentence of my comments above, you will see
> that perhaps we are not so far from agreement on this issue (or
> maybe as close as a Baptist with a Brethren background can be to
> an Anglo- Catholic on the issue of ordination)
> 
> >Ordination is the way most churches
> >recognise that a person has a call from God to preach, teach and
> >minister in the Church, and is...
> 
> To put it another way - every Christian is called to be a
> minister of the Gospel. Some are called to specific ministries of
> teaching, oversight, and liturgical leadership, and the way most
> churches recognise that call is in ordination.
> 
> I suspect we would agree that the term 'minister' is
> inappropriate for ordained persons, because it creates the
> impression that the 'minister' is the only one with a 'ministry'.

Absolutely: the word 'minister' should _never_ be used in the singular.
And I'm firm about 'ordination': that term belongs to 'ministry' - not
to a caste/elite of ministers.
> 
> cheers
> 
> N+
> 
> Nigel B. Mitchell
> 

-- 

Shalom!  Rowland Croucher                     ()

         John Mark Ministries - resources for pastors/leaders         
      (Bookroom, library, and worldwide F.W.Boreham Trading Post)
WEBSITE  (1300 articles  1000+ links  4000+ visitors a day)  
                  http://jmm.aaa.net.au