From: Nigel B. Mitchell <>
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: Christians & Alcohol


> On Sat, 05 Aug 2000 14:25:26 GMT,  (Michael
> Kennedy) wrote:
>
> >Now about your reply, you haven't actually quoted any reason for there
> >not being a dual meaning of the word wine, so I can't really see why
> >you say it's nonsense. So I will just give you some more scriptural
> >support "for" the dual meaning of wine in the Bible.
>
> Michael,
>
> I do not dispute that the word "yayin" in the Hebrew and "oinos" in
> the Greek is sometimes used for grape juice. The "nonsense" is your
> baseless assumption that wherever the bible speaks of wine
> pejoratively it refers to alcohol, and wherever it speaks approvingly
> it speaks of grape juice.
>
> If you know anything about the history of food, you will know that the
> technology to preserve grape juice in an unfermented state was not
> widely and cheaply available until the 19th century. Before then,
> fermentation was used as a process to preserve the wine, and in the
> case of wine for everyday drinking the alcohol was a by-product. Wine
> in the ancient world was not as alcoholic as modern wine, and it was
> usually drunk mixed with water, especially by children.
>
> >In Lamentations there is a very vivid description of the anguish
> >suffered by Judah during the great famine caused by Nebuchadnezzar's
> >siege of Jerusalem.  In famished distress the little children cried
> >out to their mothers:  "'Where is bread and wine[yayin]?' as
> >they faint like wounded men in the streets of the city, as their life
> >is poured out on their mothers' bosom" (Lam 2:12).
> >In this scripture the infants are crying out to their mothers for
> >their food and drink, namely, bread and yayin.  It is hardly
> >imaginable that in time of siege and famine, these little children
> >would be asking their mothers for intoxicating wine as their normal
> >drink.
>
> Even today in meditteranean cultures wine mixed with water is an
> everyday drink for children. Surely you know that!
>
> The wowserish preocupation with "intoxicating wine" as a bad thing is,
> as you pointed out in your first post, a phenomenon of some religious
> groups in the 19th century. Alongside the development of technology
> which made possible the preparation of pleasant and healthful
> non-alcoholic drinks, some groups (including Christians of all
> denominations) developed the idea that it would be better for the
> health, well- being and productivity of working people if they
> abstained from alcohol. Few would dispute that, and I would agree that
> they had a good point. During the 17th and 18th centuries the social
> problems caused by overindulgence in alcohol were immense.
>
> The problem comes when people mine the scriptures for verses which
> seem to support their pet theories, and what started out as a
> worthwhile social movement becomes "your are not a proper Christian if
> you don't think and do as we do". It is that implication that prompted
> my verdict of nonsense" on your previous post.
>
> >In Genesis 49:11 the blessings of God upon Judah are prophesied
> >through the imagery of an abundant harvest of yayin: "He washes his
> >garments in wine [yayin] and his vesture in the blood of grapes."  The
> >idea expressed by this imagery is that the harvest is so great that
> >the garments of the grape treaders appear washed in the abundance of
> >juice. These two clauses express the same thought with different
> >words. The "garments" of the first clause correspond to the "vesture"
> >of the second clause, and the "wine" (yayin) to the "blood of
> >the grapes."  "Blood" is obviously a poetic name for " juice".
> >Its usage here in parallelism with "wine" tells us that in Bible times
> >grape juice was called yayin, not just alcoholic wine.
>
> I agree that this is one of the occasions where yayin seems to be
> synonymous with grape juice.
>
> But tell me this - why did they bother? Why did people in the ancient
> world bother to make wine at all?
>
> And what do _you_ think Jesus taught his disciples by his actions at
> the wedding at Cana?
>
> cheers
>
> N+
>
> 
> http://www.perthcathedral.org