Subject: Re: Belief in God. (was People of Value & Forgiveness)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 9:15:06 +0800
From: "Nigel Mitchell" <>
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian,nz.soc.religion


Hi, Chris,

Thanks for this. As happens so often, you show yourself to be more articulate and
better informed than most of the Christians here (including me) in matters of
faith.

I don't read this as an argumentative piece, and I will not try and pick it to
pieces or dispute any part. I accept it as your opinion and understanding.

You have invited me to respond on one place, and I have done so. 

On Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:40:53 +0800, Chris Ho-Stuart wrote
(in message <>):
> From my own experience and limited chances to interact with others, the 
> difference between theism and atheism has nothing to do with a lack of 
> imagination or a poverty of experience, or bad luck. 
> 
> The distinction between theism and atheism is something about belief, or 
> lack thereof, in "god". 
>
> Just what we mean by "god" is a totally non-trivial matter. I distinguish 
> two broad classes of god-concepts. 
> 
> The first is basically anthropomorphic. This is I think the most common; and 
> it is explicit in the orthodox Christian doctrine that we are in the image 
> of God. By this concept, God is an entity, so that it makes sense to speak 
> of God existing. Just how our human nature reflect any aspects of the divine 
> nature is open to a range of interpretations, but God at least can have a 
> relationship with us in some way. God is not wisdom in the abstract; God is 
> a supreme being who is wise. God is in some sense conscious or aware, as we 
> are conscious or aware. It may even make sense to speak of God deciding 
> between alternatives, as we do. 
> 
> Note that I use anthropomorphic is a very general sense, with no implication 
> that God has to share in all our various human imperfections. It is not 
> meant as a term of criticism. 
> 
> The second form of god-concept is nebulous. By this concept, the proposition 
> "God exists" may not even be the same form as propositions like "Nigel 
> exists" or "Santa Claus exists"; there may be no distinguishable entity out 
> there which is "god" in distinction to other things which are not-god. 
> 
> Some people try to express concepts of God which do not fit the simple 
> "supreme superhuman conscious and living entity" which is like us only much 
> much greater. For example, Paul Tillich speaks of God as "the ground of 
> being". Abstract forms of Buddhism or Hinduism think of God as "all being"; 
> and enlightenment is in part recognition that the distinction between god 
> and not-god is vacuous. Albert Einstein spoke of God as "the order we 
> perceive in the universe" -- something wonderful, but not in the least 
> human, and not something with whom you have a relationship, and something 
> totally unconnected with issues of morality. 
> 
> I think there may be Christians with this kind of concept of God: not 
> actually a distinct conscious living entity that exists or does not exist; 
> though they may find it helpful to think of God in that way as an aid to 
> prayer or meditation (which are essentially the same thing). It is hard for 
> Christians to express such a view, since it is generally recognized as 
> heretical. 
> 
> Some Christians do brave disapproval; and attempt to express their concept 
> of God openly, even though it flies in the face of orthodoxy. I have even 
> heard the term "Christian atheist" -- one who somehow has reconciled in 
> their world view on the one hand a pivotal role for the person of Jesus 
> Christ, while on the other hand avoiding adopting Jesus' own views on the 
> divinity and recognizing that there is no superhuman entity distinct and 
> supreme over the rest of the universe. 
> 
> Jesus' view of God is very anthropomorphic as I use the term. Jesus saw God 
> as a great heavenly Father, who could love, and forgive, and punish. 
> 
> What Nigel understands by the term "God" I honestly do not know. I would be 
> curious to know -- but I have a sneaking suspicion that a careful answer on 
> his part would lower his credibility with many Christians who hold more 
> orthodox views. 

You might be right, but that has never stopped me before.

My understanding of the word "God" is expressed in both of the ways you have
described above. I draw a distinction betwen how I know God, and what I know
about God.

If you ask me for a definition of "God", I would answer in similar terms to
Tillich and Einstein above. "God" is the origin, the first cause, and the reason
for existence of all that is. We live in a tension between the chaos of un-being,
and the perfection of Being. It follows that all movement towards order,
improvement, and whatever is good, is movement towards God, and movemenet towards
disorder, destruction and whatever is bad is movement away from God. When I said
that atheists do not have the imagination to see God, I meant that, for me, God
is visible in every tree, in every wave, in cute cuddly animals and grand
ferocious ones, as well as ugly ones that clean up the scraps on the forest
floor. God is also there in my daughter's eyes when she smiles, and when she
cries. What I do not understand is how other people can see these things, and not
see God. What do they see?

If you ask me how I know God, and what difference God makes in my life, then my
answer can only be anthropomorphic. The leap from "Ground of Being" to "God I
worship in Church" is made through my personal experience of revelation, the
study I have done and the teaching I have received from the Christian scriptures,
and the fellowship I receive in the community of believers.

The last of these is what comes first, for me and for most other Christians. I
became a Christian, and particularly an Anglican Christian, because my parents
made me a part of that community. I went through all the rituals - baptism,
confirmation, singing in the choir, sunday school, etc. Some of ht eontent was
great. Some of it was dreadful. But the Church was an extension of my family, and
it provided nurture and support to me, just like a family. One of the teachings
of Jesus which I hold dear is in John 13:31-35 where he taught that the
distinctive thing that should make Christians stand out from the crowd should be
the love we have for one another. It might not seem like it sometimes on this
newsgroup, but throughout my life that love has been a fundamental part of my
experience of Church. I was brought into a loving and supportive community, and I
grew up in it, and see no reason to leave it.

In my case, personal experience of God is probably the next aspect. There have
been two times when the whole direction of my life has changed because I felt a
call from God. My ability to describe these events is no better than the attempts
of biblical authors to describe such experiences. I could say I hear a voice, or
saw an angel, but in fact what happened was I just knew. One day I was thinking
and planning along route X, and the next day I knew God wanted me to go on route
Y. Aside from those two life-changing experiences, there have been many times,
dating back to my early teens, when I have known the presence and comfort of God.
I know that when I pray, God hears my prayers. This is an entirely subjective
thing. People who have had the same experience whill know exactly what I mean,
and people who have not will probably think it sounds like nonsense, but I can
live with that.

The third aspect of my knowing God is through my studies of the Bible, and the
history and teachings of the Church. I won't go into this in too much detail,
except to say that the Bible, read in its proper context of the tradition of the
Curch, provides the content for what I say and do about God.

... which is a rather long winded wy of saying that my understanding of God is
that God is the ground of Being, the cause of all that is, and the One with whom
I have a personal loving relationship, a relationship which is shared and
nurtured by my fellow Christians in the Church, and a relationship which is
formed and informed by my study of the scriptures.

cheers



-- 

N+

Nigel B. Mitchell