Subject: Re: Jesus Plays Favourites?
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:28:01 GMT
From:  (Nigel B. Mitchell)
Reply-To:  
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian

Hi, Joan.
Thanks for your response.

It will probably be impossible for us to conduct this 
conversation without Graeme unhelpfully interjecting, 
but I will try and stay focussed and respond to your 
posts rather than Graeme’s interjections.  You 
might remember that this was a factor in our previous 
conversation grinding to a halt, although you were 
apparently having some technical problems as well.

It is neccesary to preface my remarks by stating 
clearly that I do not think that our salvation is 
wrought by any legal process. It is a free gift of 
God, out of nothing but his grace and love. If you are 
strongly committed to the idea that our salvation is a 
legal process, then let me acknowledge at the outset 
that you will probably disagree with just about 
everything I say. 

Please be aware of this in framing your response - do 
not assume that all Christians understand Salvation to 
be a legal process.

Nigel:
>>God’s love is shown to us in Jesus in that even while we were yet
>>sinners, Jesus died for us. God loved the world so much that he sent
>>his son, so that everyone who believes in him may have fulness of life
>>in this world and in the next.
>>
>>Jesus was God walking amongst us. In his teachings are to be found the
>>way to reach true fulfilment and human beings, through loving God and
>>each other. Although the people of his time rejected him and killed
>>him on the cross, God raised him from the dead to demonstrate for us
>>that nothing, not even rejection and murder of his son, could divert
>>or reduce God’s love for us. It is the guarantee that God will care
>>for us in this world, and bring us home to be with him in the next.

Joan:
>Of course it didn’t divert God’s love for us! ... the Cross was the reason
>He came.
>You bypassed Christ’s redemptive work on the cross altogether.

If by ‘redemptive’ you mean the idea that 
God demanded a sacrifice, then I bypassed it because 
I reject it.

>What does Rom. 3:23-26 mean to you?

Paul uses the language of atonement and propitiation 
as a metaphor. He is saying that the Cross 
demonstrates God’s love for us, and that his 
blood is the gift of life for us.

Let me see if I can explain this with two possible 
understandings. I acknowledge that _both_ are 
overstatements of the case, for demonstration 
purposes.

Proposition 1:
An angry God demands the lifeblood of all who have 
sinned. Jesus, who has not sinned, offers his 
lifeblood on the cross, and the angry god accepts 
this sacrifice as atonement for all the world.

Proposition 2:
God wants to be friends with everyone, but mostly 
they ignore him. He sends Jesus to tell people 
about him, but they hate him and crucify him. God 
could be angry, but he decides to forgive the 
people because he loves them, and proves this in 
the resurrection.

Both of these statements are absurd, but the second 
is _closer_ to the truth, as I understand it.

>And Rom. 5:6-21 ?

Briefly:
All humanity experiences Sin and Death.
In the life, death and Ressurection of Jesus, God 
shows us that because of his love for us he offers, 
as a free gift, forgiveness and eternal life. Paul 
stresses that this is a free gift, not a legal process.

>>BTW I am glad you have decided to talk to me again.
>>If you can be bothered, I would really be interested in your answers
>>to the questions I asked you when we last spoke. What church, if any,
>>do you attend, and what version of the Bible do you usually read. I
>>cannot imagine why any Christian would want to be secretive or ashamed
>>of the answers to these simple questions, so I hope you will respond.

>Nigel, if you asked me these questions then I missed them as you know I
>wasn’t getting some of the posts through, so enough of the silly games.
>I use the NKJV.
>I attend a Christian fellowship which has it’s roots in the Brethren, and
>one I’m far from ashamed of.

Thanks, Joan.
Your only response to the post in which I asked those questions was “Nigel