From: "Chris Ho-Stuart"



Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian





Subject: Re: faith (was creationism)





> Ken Smith  wrote:

> > A correction at one point, Chris.

> >

> > Chris Ho-Stuart <> writes:

> [snip]

> >>The bible speaks of Joshua commanding the Sun to stand still,

> >>and that it did so.

> >>

> >>Joshua 10:13

> >>   "And the Sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people

> >>   had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is this not written

> >>   in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of

> >>   heaven, and hastened not to go down about a whole day."

> >>

> >>The plain meaning of this passage is perfectly clear, and this

> >>passage was used by church leaders like Martin Luther and John

> >>Calvin to disprove the notion of Copernicus that the Earth

> >>was in motion about the Sun.

> >

> > I can't speak with authority about Luther, but I've delved

> > fairly deeply into what Calvin has written about science -

> > of which astronomy was about all that existed in his day.

> > Claims about Calvin and Copernicus seem to have originated

> > sometime in the 19th century, and without giving a precise

> > citation to Calvin.  Copernicus isn't mentioned by name in

> > his large commentary on Genesis, and what he does say there

> > about astronomy is mainly in support of it.  In parts of his

> > "Institutes of the Christian Religion" (I'll see if I can

> > find the place and give his exact words) he supports "the

> > work and ministry" of unbelievers in logic, mathematics, ...



Chris:



> Damn. You are quite right, and in fact I am embarassed to say

> that last year I looked into reports of Calvin speaking against

> Copernicus' heliocentric model and found them to be badly

> grounded.

>

> In this post I was writing quickly, and forgot about it.

> Luther certainly spoke on this; but Calvin is another matter.

>

> Basically, it appears likely that Calvin accepted a geocentric

> model but placed no great importance on it. In this, he cannot

> be faulted.



Ken:



> > The closest I have found to accepting a geocentric universe rather

> > than a heliocentric one is in his commentary on one of the Psalms,

> > where he mentions the speed with which the stars move.  This seems to

> > assume that the earth is fixed and the stars rotate around the earth

> > each day, but he's just using this as an example og God's power, and

> > doesn't claim it as the absolute truth.  Again, no mention of

> > Copernicus.



Chris



> Right.

>

> There is a widely circulated "quote" of Calvin speaking against

> Copernicus on the basis of the Joshua passage. It appears in

> White's "Warfare of Science with Theology", which is widely

> used on the internet. But White's scholarship is atrocious,

> and the quote is most likely simply an invention of Farrar,

> another nineteenth century writer.

>

> A good article on the subject is

>    "Calvin and the Astronomical Revolution" by Matthew F Dowd,

> on-line at

>    <http://www.nd.edu/~mdowd1/postings/CalvinAstroRev.html>

>

> The article does find a case where Calvin preached on the passage

> from Joshua quoted above. In the sermon, Calvin apprarently

> accepts that the Earth is fixed, and that the Sun was stopped.

>

> However, what is interesting is that Calvin spends almost no time

> on the astronomical issues, and places focus on the theological

> lessons; and specifically on the need to supplicate God and that

> it was God acting, not Joshua, in this instance.

>

> At the time of Calvin, he cannot be faulted for maintaining

> the geocentric model. The heliocentric model was in the wings

> and gaining some support, but scientifically speaking there was

> still not any good evidence for it. Calvin does not appear to

> make the error of insisting on trying his faith to propositions

> in astronomy. He used in passing the knowledge of the day; but

> focussed mainly upon on other matters. His faith would apparently

> not have been greatly upset by the confirmation of a heliocentric

> model.

>

> I knew this, and it was sloppy work on my part to cite Calvin.

> I should have stuck to Luther.



Ken:



> > Having said that, geocentric ideas are far from dead today.

> > There are several million conservative Christians in USA who are

> > firmly convinced that heliocentrism is the work of Satan, and that all

> > true Christians believe that the earth is fixed, as mentioned in

> > several of the Psalms, and that the sun rises and sets and then

> > returns to the place from which it rose, as mentioned in the early

> > verses of Ecclesiastes.



Chris:



> I've looked into this as well. Here are some relevant links.

>

> Here is an article about Elmendorf, who has a standing offer

> of $10,000 for a proof that the Earth moves around the Sun,

> and $5,000 for a proof that the Earth rotates on its axis.

>    <http://www.post-gazette.com/columnists/20020121brian0121p1.asp>

>

> Paula Haigh, a Roman Catholic geocentrist.

> <http://www.endofman.com/True_Religion/galileoheresy.htm>

>

> Malcolm Bowden (geocentrist, creationist)

> <http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/geocentr.htm>

> <http://www.mbowden.surf3.net>

>

> Marshall Hall

> <http://www.fixedearth.com>

>

> Gerardus Bouw (bible believing geocentrist, astronmer)

> <http://www.geocentricity.com>

>

> Kari Tikkamen list of links on this bizarre subject

> <http://www.student.oulu.fi/~ktikkane/eU_LITT2.html>

>

> [snip rest]

>

> Cheers -- Chris